The relationship | Justice for Twiggy

So when exactly did Jessicka and Jeordie date?

Considering how Jeordie has never talked about his relationship with Jessicka, it's a bit suspicious that the timeline of it is so unclear even though Jessicka has basically been the only one talking about it and the only one constantly reminding the public about it.

The major change is how in the 90's interviews, Jessicka said they dated between 1993 to 1997, she said many times that they dated for four years...

For example;

Jessicka interviewed by Jeff Cohn for a fanpage on November 24th,1997:

Jeff: I've heard rumors that you and Twiggy had been together for some time, is that a sensitive topic or ..?
Jessicka: No not at all, we dated for about 4 years and we used to live together, It's just he went on with his career and I went on with mine.

Interview with Jessicka, conducted by phone on Friday, June 13, 1997.

c: what is your relationship with twiggy?

j: twiggy is a person that is part of marilyn manson, and always will be. he was my boyfriend of four years. we dated around the time of most of manson’s tours... nine inch nails, danzig... we kept the business aspect of our relationship separate, which was a good thing. actually, at one time manson wanted twiggy to join jack off jill. that was while he was in amboog-a-lard. we met through manson.

Then, the storyline in her allegations only really goes up to around fall 1994, and then "I saw Jeordie through the 90's" is mentioned with grief as if she didn't want to see him at all, but the "I was planning to come forward in 1997" does still suggest that the relationship ended in 1997.

And there are more issues that come up, that kind of suggest that this relationship may have in fact been a lot shorter than four years. Let's look into it.

One thing is the song Angels Fuck Devils Kiss. A further look into this song can be found on the JOJ lyrics page where I discuss the lyrical theme and possible meaning of the song in detail, but here I'll look into the timing of the release of the song. However, I'll mention of the analysis here that there have been pretty clear implications of this song being about Jeordie. And in an interview in a 90's official JOJ Newsletter, Jessicka mentions this to be about a relationship ending.

Jessicka interviewed for issue 5 of the official JOJ Newsletter:

--What do you mean by "help destroy the world" in 'Angel's fuck'? "

"It is symbolism for a relationship. We have all had --or wanted to have-a kind of a symbiotic 'us against the world' type of relationship....a Bonnie and Clyde, or a Mickey and Mallory kind of thing. This song is about that relationship going bad. Instead of the two of you against the world, it ends
up being just you.

Alright, so why does it contradict the timeline of the relationship, 1993-1997? AFDK was included on Jack Off Jill's debut album Sexless Demons and Scars, which was released in September 1997. It takes a lot of time between the writing, recording and then finally the release of a song on an album. For comparison, the Marilyn Manson debut album Portrait Of An American Family was recorded in fall 1993, the sessions beginning in August, and then released in July 1994, that would be about a ten month period between the beginning of the recordings and the release of the album.

This would mean that with an about a similar timeline of recording and release, which it is still very often even nowadays that the recording sessions happen around six months to a year before the album release, the recordings of Sexless Demons and Scars would most likely have began in the beginning of 1997 or late 1996. This would mean that the song could have been, at it's latest, written in late 1996 or even earlier.

Bands often go to the studio with finished songs, of course in the studio they may be changed up, rearranged, some bands write song lyrics last in the studio if they aren't their main interest in the process. But with Jack Off Jill being a band that's so centered around vocals and the message in the lyrics, it could be assumed that the lyrics were finished as they entered the studio. I don't know, these are just assumptions, but could imagine this to be so.

Jack Off Jill also often used older songs on their albums, songs that were written years ago, for example, on the same album the song My Cat was part of their setlist right from the beginning, four years before the release of the album. AFDK could have very well been written even earlier than 1996, as For comparison, Jessicka was already writing the songs for Clear Hearts, Grey Flowers (2000) in 1998.

It's just a bit off anyway, could assume that had Jessicka and Jeordie broken up in 1997 as she's been implying all this time, a song about breaking up in 1997 would not have made it on time to be included on the album in September 1997, it most likely would have been released on the next album, which came out in 2000.

Another issue is other relationships and Jessicka saying she'd "already wanted to leave him at this point" in her statement in context of an event that can be placed in spring/summer 1994,

Jessicka stated in her allegations that she "wanted to leave him" but was unable to due to "no one being willing to stand up to for her" then, soon after it's a problem that Jeordie's with other women. This is a bit weird, really.

Of course, it has to be noted that an abusive partner does not always exactly act rationally, and with issues like cheating and friendships, it can be a "rules for you but not for me" situation, that for example an abusive boyfriend doesn't allow his girlfriend to be with male friends but hangs out with a bunch of girls himself. Or that cheating is okay when he does it, but when the girl even looks at an other man, it's a huge issue. This can happen in an abusive relationship, that is true, but it doesn't really erase the question here.

When she in her allegations discussed Jeordie cheating on her on the Nine Inch Nails tour, it comes right after the mention "I wanted to leave him" and as she describes the argument about this alleged cheating that took place as Jeordie came home on a break from this tour, she also states that they no longer lived in the same apartment and she was staying with friends.

This is a bit weird, not only has she just said that she'd wanted to leave him, she's now "staying with friends" which kind of implies that she'd rather crash on someone's couch than live with Jeordie - but she's angry that he's with someone else? Were they even together anymore at this point?

This someone else, who it is, is left unmentioned, but it has been discussed many times throughout the years that this was Courtney Love and you can read more on the page about it. Courtney's band Hole joined the lineup of the NIN tour along with Marilyn Manson in August 1994, and her and Jeordie's relationship has been a topic of discussion, as well as Manson teasing Jeordie about it in interviews many times.

This "wanting to leave him but being unable to" thing also is a bit weird considering that since the beginning of the NIN tour in May 1994, Jeordie was out of town for most of the time, and Jessicka does mention moving out of their shared apartment. Jeordie was in another state/country for most of the year 1994 and from there on, Marilyn Manson made him very busy with constant tours and recording sessions. Jessicka herself was also a touring musician. In a time of no social media, cellphones not so popular yet either, it'd be hard to keep up even a committed romantic relationship. I don't want to make the "why didn't she just leave" point as it is an uneducated one, but considering all these things, here it is kind of a question to be asked - Jeordie could most likely not have controlled her very effectively, not in the way she claims he did.

Another relationship that was rumoured to have taken place around this time was with Sean Yseult from White Zombie. Sean confirmed this later in an interview in 2011:

Rock N Roll Experience, March 2011:

Rock N Roll Experience: Did you date Twiggy Ramirez at one point?

Sean: We did (laughs)...I don't know if you call it dating, we were friends and hooked up, ya know? (laughs) We hung out for a while, it was kinda crazy, but our bands were on tour alot at that time (laughs)

It's not exactly clear when this was, but photos of them together can be placed in around December 1994, considering the very christmas attire and Jeordie's hair and makeup. He's got the 1994 makeup look but he's just shaved his eyebrows, which would place this in late 1994.

Then, the next one that is known is ex Jack Off Jill member Helen Storer, with whom Jessicka had a public falling out regarding her support towards Jeordie in the 2017 allegations drama. You can read about this more on the Helen Storer page.

This, according to the discussions mentioned on the Helen page can be placed in 1996. Her relationship to Jeordie was originally mentioned in Jack Off Jill sources positively as a fun piece of trivia that "Both Jessicka and Helen dated Twiggy Ramirez" but upon Helen's support to Jeordie, Jessicka changed the story to such, that Jeordie had cheated on her with Helen. It just didn't really add up, considering that Jessicka's changed story was contradictory to literally everything that she had said prior...

It has also been rumoured that Jeordie's current girlfriend Michelle Siwy has dated him earlier, in the 90's. There is an instagram post of hers that could support this, but this is still to be properly confirmed.

So in this one, there's a photo of Jeordie on the wall with the caption "It's like everything I've ever lost in this life come back to me." Which would suggest that they might have dated earlier, maybe this relationship had ended but they'd gotten back together later. The photo is from 1997 as Jeordie had the front of his hair shaved like that around that time.

It is a bit strange that what originally was "we dated for four years" being mentioned in a lot of interviews and even her bio, Jeordie proudly mentioned in "Jessicka's favorite photos" on her website in "GUY FRIENDS!" folder, then later on turned into "I wanted to leave him but couldn't and he just kept cheating on me", but then he's stayed on good terms with basically all these other women, none of which have said a bad thing about him, all while Jessicka at the same time claims that Jeordie abused everyone he was with? Huh?

Another thing is that while we do have quite a bit of photos of Jessicka and Jeordie together, none of them can really be placed in a time after 1995. 1994-1995 Jack Off Jill toured/played shows with Marilyn Manson so these photos too can just be from those occasions. But considering how both Jessicka and Jeordie had far more media attention and people shoving cameras into their faces towards the late 90's it's a bit strange that it's the early days that these photos are mainly from. I have yet to see a photo of Jessicka and Jeordie together that could be placed to be after 1995. Jeordie also had a habit of bringing his girlfriends on tour with him, which doesn't seem to have been the case with Jessicka...

One possible thing that could explain this "four year relationship" thing could be, as many have suggested to me in messages, that maybe it was so that it was an on/off relationship, or so that they were both hooking up with people on tours and were together when both were in Fort Lauderdale, and maybe Jessicka was expecting it to be more than that, while Jeordie just saw it as a hookup?

In this case, this "relationship" allegedly ending in 1997 in Jessicka's opinion could be explained with the fact that Jeordie moved out of Fort Lauderdale to Los Angeles in September 1997. This moving to LA is briefly mentioned in a couple Hour Of Goon episodes, in one of which, Jeordie says this happened after the Antichrist Superstar tour ended in Mexico, this would be in September 1997. Had there been an occasional hookup, "friends with benefits" situation or an on/off relationship, moving to the other side of the country would definitely make it difficult.

It's interesting that considering how hard she says he was to get rid of, it's never really discussed how and when this relationship ended and how she managed to get rid of him. She keeps adding and adding to the story but this has never been stated.

Overall, this all with the story changing and with these unclarities with when and how serious this relationship was, it could also point to a situation where Jeordie wanted to move on and be with other people, but Jessicka wasn't accepting of it? It really looks like things ended in 1994...

This "I wanted to leave him" with unclarity about when exactly and how long they dated, as well as the "he kept cheating on me" while expressing resentment towards the relationship and describing how horrible it was... It's like she wanted to get rid of him but also him being with someone else was an insult. Then there's the song AFDK yet again which seems to be more about being angry at being rejected than anything else... Can't stop mentioning Jeordie in connection to herself but also states he was so horrible... Keeping up with his relationships and talking shit about them.... It reminds me of something.

I will not go to detail, but I have had friends confide to me about their jealous partners, exes, with narcissistic qualities. I have been there to support them in leaving, to tell them that this is not how a person should be treated. I have witnessed this behavior both in person or overhearing an insanely angry phonecall, or then in text screenshots etc sent to me. (I am talking about more than one occasion, not a single person) The pattern is that when a jealous, narcissistic partner gets left, what happens is: "I never wanted to date you anyway, in fact it was ME who left an asshole behind, you only made my life worse!" This is a manipulation attempt in trying to appear the "winner, the one who actually made the decision, the one who is unaffected". Then despite this, the person who rejected the jealous partner seeking a new relationship or having a one night stand is still considered betrayal and cheating despite the jealous ex just having stated that they're happy the relationship ended because they never wanted it anyway. - "If I can't have you then no one else can either."

It's a constant conflict between statements, the narcissistic and jealous ex will do their best to make sure everyone knows (or convince the victim that everyone thinks) how bad and horrible their victim supposedly was, how horribly the victim supposedly treated them, but it is always in reaction to the victim not coming back or complying with their wishes, not being accessible. It's a "how dare you leave me, but I never wanted you, leave me the fuck alone I hate you, but also why aren't you coming back? I'm so glad you're not in my life anymore you horrible piece of shit, but since you aren't coming back into my life like I demand, I'll punish you for it. I never wanted you, you always just wanted to hurt me anyway,, but how dare you seek the company of someone else?" like there is no winning other than ignoring.

New relationships are met with things such as "They don't love you for you, only to gain from you, they will leave you" which also is present in how Jessicka talks about Jeordie's girlfriends; she barely knows them but states they're just starstruck, trying to gain something from him and don't know him for who he really is and will eventually leave him. When asked about why it is that she even keeps up with his relationships if he's so horrible and she just wants to move on, the person askinf is personally attacked and called a Jeordie stan for keeping up with Jessicka's keeping up with Jeordie.

I personally had a toxic person in my life get angry about my relationship to my boyfriend, and try to convince me that my boyfriend doesn't really love me but only dates me because he's "too nice to say no." (Notice yet again the lack of agency and always being "at mercy of others" these kind of people push in their stories of either themselves or a person they want to portray as a victim to support their narrative, good old "forced to hang out with you" lol, a grown man can't make his own opinion or speak their mind in a matter this important but an irrelevant outsider to the relationship "knows the truth"? Familiar?) Okay well, my boyfriend asked me out first? He initiated the beginning of the relationship. I rejected him at first but in time as I got to know him better I realized I also have feelings for him. It was a slow progress spanning a few years. That claim made no sense, it was just to discredit that love somehow and ruin my happiness, convince me I am unlovable.

Relationships or even friendships with a jealous/narcissistic person can result in s situation where the relationship is broken and mended several times because there's this "getting the upper hand" thing; They want you back so they can leave you, so that they were the one doing the rejecting, because being rejected implies there's something wrong with them and that just isn't possible in their mind.

Or this can result in a smear campaign to push the desired narrative which is that the jealous ex was the one being wronged the whole time. It's just that often there is no logic in the claims and the story depends on who it's being told to and how it's reacted to. Which in Jessicka's case also is pretty often the case, the story changes based on how the listener reacts to it.

I'm just stating that her attitude and behavior in connection to Jeordie does remind me of jealous partners and exes, ex friends even, I have seen people close to me deal with and that I have also dealt with.