MANSON & JEORDIE:
Now let's look into how the whole "Manson fired Twiggy" situation went, in detail. Contrary to common understanding, it really doesn't seem like he believed the allegations, or that they were the only and primary reason to have Jeordie out of the band.
Do note here that the "Manson believed Jessicka and fired Jeordie based on her word" is a story pushed by Jessicka, she is still claiming that to this day. And you'll see how it dissolves under a magnifying glass. Will come back to this further down this page.
First, let's look at Marilyn Manson's reaction to the allegations. There was a tweet about parting ways with Jeordie, and then after, a longer statement.
The longer statement said the following:
"I knew Jessicka and Jeordie had a romantic relationship many years ago and I considered and still consider Jessicka to be a friend. I knew nothing about these allegations until very recently and am saddened by Jessicka's obvious distress."
His reaction isn't exactly what you would expect in a situation like this. An article on Culturedvultures.com notes these issues very clearly, journalist Patrick King wrote the following: (of course this is clearly criticizing Manson for not doing enough from the point of view of a reporter who seems to believe Jessicka, but these are very good observations on how Manson's behavior doesn't match the situation.)
Well, then. This all seems very, well, lawyer-ish language. Not even a hint that he’s doing this because of the rape allegations Jack Off Jill and Scarling frontwoman Jessicka Addams wrote about in a lengthy, frank, and heartbreaking Facebook post five days ago. One certainly hopes he’ll have more to say on it later.
Last night’s tweet follows Manson’s bizarrely neutral initial response to the allegations, in which he said, “I knew Jessicka and Jeordie had a romantic relationship many years ago and I considered and still consider Jessicka to be a friend.” Well, gee, the first thing one should do when a bandmate is accused of rape is to point out that they were involved in a romance.
The statement went on: “I knew nothing about these allegations until very recently and am saddened by Jessicka’s obvious distress.” Oh, that’s nice. So not only does Manson make sure to mention romance, but there seems to be something he’s leaving out. A word, perhaps. Something important. Well, shit, I guess we’ll never know.
Though White didn’t join Manson’s band until 1993, after they released their first mainstream album, Portrait of an American Family, anyone who’s read Manson’s autobiography knows that he wanted to White to join the group from the band’s beginnings in 1989. What little time Manson spent writing about original guitarist Daisy Berkowitz was used to put him down, while Manson fawned over White. They’re very close friends.
But, I don’t know, man, if my best friend was accused of rape by a very credible person whom I also considered a friend, maybe I would skip the part about wishing the guy well. Comes off as a bit crass and disrespectful.
In all fairness, it appears that Jessicka Addams seems to be satisfied with Manson’s decision, as you can see from the following tweet:
And yeah. Exactly! Manson's response seems extremely vague and not only that, very light considering the volume of the accusations. He would absolutely not be wishing Jeordie well if he'd believed the allegations! Had he found them credible, he would have most likely felt partly responsible himself and also felt bad for Jessicka, because according to her in an interview from the 90's, it was actually Manson who introduced the two to each other:
Interview with Jessicka, conducted by phone on Friday, June 13, 1997.
c: what is your relationship with twiggy?
j: twiggy is a person that is part of marilyn manson, and always will be. he was my boyfriend of four years. we dated around the time of most of manson’s tours... nine inch nails, danzig... we kept the business aspect of our relationship separate, which was a good thing. actually, at one time manson wanted twiggy to join jack off jill. that was while he was in amboog-a-lard. we met through manson.
(I will have to note here that there is doubt over the truthfulness of other things she said in this exact quote, such as the "boyfriend for four years". The relationship most likely didn't last that long and you can read about it on the When did they date? page as well as the JOJ lyrics page. Whether this "we met through Manson" is true or not, I don't know, but here on, I mention it here anyway since in assuming Jessicka was telling the truth, this would be a notable detail.)
Not only that, but also the fact that with the bands being so closely associated and JOJ being so often asked to open for Marilyn Manson, this would've meant that Jessicka would have had to be very uncomfortable on those occasions. The abuse allegations, had they been true, from this angle should have also made Manson feel sad and uncomfortable on Jessicka's behalf.
That is very weird. And how Jessicka was so satisfied with the response, did she read Marilyn Manson's statement at all? Or was she just satisfied with the fact that Jeordie got humiliated publicly and fired from the band? If you read the previous page about Jessicka's attack on Manson, how she was publishing similar claims about Manson and took them back after Manson parted ways with Jeordie... Not only does it show that she has no problem with using very serious accusations to get what she wants, but also that this more so looks like some sort of a planned attack on Jeordie rather than actually trying to seek justice.
This entire tweet situation, on both parts, is such a performance.
And what else there is in Manson's statement, let's read it again:
"I knew Jessicka and Jeordie had a romantic relationship many years ago and I considered and still consider Jessicka to be a friend. I knew nothing about these allegations until very recently and am saddened by Jessicka's obvious distress."
Remember how on the previous page, I discussed how around this same time, Jessicka was denying the friendship between her and Manson? And Manson is considering her a friend here? Usually if a friendship ends, both people are aware of it. One could see this more as a question: I thought we were friends? Which would be an interesting way to address how Jessicka's opinion on Manson as well as her description of her association to him seems to always change depending on what looks the best for her. When this kind of narrative changes happen, other people involved aren't always up to date with them.
"I knew nothing about the allegations" as I have stated before, would be impossible if Jessicka's story was true. Manson was Jeordie's best friend, who allegedly introduced Jeordie and Jessicka to each other. Jessicka's statement describes an abusive relationship that the people in their social circles were all aware of.
And on the Jessicka & Manson part 1 page you can read about the friendship between Jessicka and Manson; she would have most likely told Manson about her experiences about Jeordie already in the 2000's had her version of the situation been true. In the 2000's she was pushing a false narrative where Manson had ended his friendship to Jeordie and was now close and supportive to Jessicka. Manson would most likely have heard about all of this at least by then and never asked Jeordie to rejoin his band in 2008. Manson saying he doesn't know is him basically denying everything in a very subtle way.
"I am saddened by her obvious distress" could be more a "I'm disappointed and wonder why you need to do this, I feel bad for you, you're putting yourself in a bad place, I'm saddened that you're mentally in a place like this, so unhappy with your own life and yourself that you feel this would help."
This statement could be rewritten as: "I have no idea what you're talking about, I thought we were friends, why do you feel the need to do this."
Essentially, Manson subtly denies everything she's said while appearing compassionate. And then, if you compare this to what Jeordie said in his response to the allegations:
“I have only recently been made aware of these allegations from over 20 years ago. I do not condone non-consensual sex of any kind . I will be taking some time to spend with my family and focus on maintaining my several years of sobriety. If i have caused anyone pain i apologize and truly regret it.”
It's almost the same thing. "I never knew about it. I do not condone that kind of behavior." That has the same tone, it's a very vague denial.
This vague and neutral press statement tone could be explained with how emotional the #metoo discussion is. They may not have wanted to be seen as "victim shaming" and seeing as how difficult defamation can be to prove in California, (read more on the Why didn't he sue? page) denying it publicly might not actually help, it could just stir up more drama. Manson and Jeordie's close friendship is also very widely known and in a discussion such as this, where people are "finally speaking out", Manson more clearly attempting to defend Jeordie could also just be seen as "an asshole rockstar protecting another asshole rockstar.".
What the vagueness could also be, is a thing that's also known as gray rocking. Gray rock is a term used in discussing narcissistic abuse. It's basically meant to portray a way of dealing with a narcissistic person in a situation where you can't entirely cut that person out of your life because of for example family relations or professional relations.
(I do not mean to diagnose Jessicka as a narcissist. Narcissistic can mean also people who take part in similar behavioral patterns but it can be caused by other issues, you don't necessarily even need to have a personality disorder to behave in such a way, these things are very complicated and I don't like just calling people narcissists, because the general misuse of the word has made it a "this person is the bad guy" argument that's used to dehumanize the opponent as if they aren't a human being with feelings and as if there couldn't be an understandable explanation for why they behave like they do. But I do admit that I think there are narcissistic patterns in her behavior.)
In gray rocking, you "become as interesting as a gray rock." This means that you become as unresponsive as possible, only react as vaguely as you can, give the abuser as little attention as you can, so they have nothing to stick to, nothing to use against you. Nothing to provoke you with. Sometimes it can also be telling the person what they want to hear so that they won't bother you, but do it very vaguely, which is what these responses kind of look like.
And if you have read the Abusive Jessicka page, you can see that she does use these reactive abusive tactics such as provoking to get a reaction, then playing the victim to get others to attack you. Her victim playing and reactive behavior can also be seen in her attack towards me. She has also kept a very close watch on Jeordie's career and personal life and she does keep a very close watch on the social medias of literally anyone associated with him or supportive of him. You can see from for example the Can't Drive? page and the Plushies in The Oven? page, that she has used his public appearances as inspiration in her allegations. All these little things, whatever she can use whether it's even just rumours in the fanbase, she uses them against him. See Can't remember? page and Gidget Gein page. Not to mention that her description of how long the relationship between her and Jeordie even lasted was greatly exaggerated. It's just that one would not be surprised if Jeordie and Manson were gray rocking her.
Jeordie's vagueness, how he just gave that one statement and never returned to the topic, has never commented it or acknowledged it any more than that, in the bigger picture is not new at all. He has never mentioned Jessicka's name publicly in anything at all. It has always been Jessicka talking about this relationship and sharing pictures, mentioning it all over the place. Jeordie has never interacted with her. After the photos of her and Jessicka which are from 1993-1995 there is nothing at all. This might have a connection to how his relationship to Jessicka and pretty much generally Jessicka was left out of LHROOH too while Jessicka was mentioning it in basically every interview at the same time.
BUT DID MANSON FIRE JEORDIE? ARE THEY STILL FRIENDS?
Now if we return to the first tweet. Manson states "I have decided to part ways with Jeordie White" and then there's "Wish him well."
He does say that he's decided to part ways with Jeordie, but well, this doesn't exactly leave out the possibility that Jeordie may have also decided to part ways with Marilyn Manson. If such a decision was made together, they could both say "I have decided to part ways." And as stated before, he would probably not be "wishing him well" had this actually been a "Oh my god what kind of a disgusting person do I have in my band" sort of a reaction.
And Jeordie's statement, well there are two different versions about this part available online. So I don't know if one was posted and then edited. They are very similar though.
This:
"I wish to spend this time with my family and focus on maintaining my several years of sobriety. I will be taking a leave of absence from Marilyn Manson and regrettably will not be performing on the upcoming tour." Source: loudwire.
And this:
"I will be taking some time to spend with my family and focus on maintaining my several years of sobriety. If i have caused anyone pain i apologize and truly regret it.” source: billboard.
Only one thing is really different in there: Is he taking a leave of absence or not? Like is that an official thing in a contract or what? Possibly this could have been edited to avoid suspicion/rumours that he'd be returning later, who knows. Anyhow, notice how he states "I will be taking time" "I will be taking a leave of absence" this does imply that he had a say in the decision on whether or not he works with Manson at all.
Some time after Jeordie's departure, Manson elaborated a little bit more in Kerrang! issue 1702:
"I did not divorce Twiggy as a friend or brother, because I still care about him greatly. But I can’t say that my musical relationship with Twiggy has been good for several years. My relationship with Tyler Bates on [2015’s] ‘The Pale Emperor’ made something open up in me and I didn’t want to let negative energy back in my life.
There were other people in my life that I thought were my friends that I had to cut out this year, a lot of betrayals that surprised me, and I had to clean house and adopt and new attitude. People mistook my kindness and generosity for weakness. So I kinda adapted this attitude, like, ‘If you fuck with me, there will be consequences.’ I have issues with intimacy. That might sound weird given that we’re lying in bed together, but y’know…"
In this interview he makes no mention of the allegations at all, and the only reason he really states as something that affected the decision was the "musical relationship not working".
Note the choice of words "divorce" too. Manson has earlier referred to his friendship to Jeordie as being "like a marriage" to emphasize how close friends they are. The other word he's used, "brother" is repeated here. "Did not divorce" - it is what it used to be.
It is also interesting now in hindsight to see what he said about fake friends and betrayals and people taking his generosity for weakness. As we know that the allegations towards Marilyn Manson have been a long time planned hit, and Evan Rachel Wood was already hinting towards such claims about Manson at this time. Many of the now accusers used to be on good terms with Manson up until the last few years. Could it be that he knew then already that something like this was going to happen? There could have been things going on in the background for a very long time before any of this came public, -I don't know if there was, but it's very possible that in 2017, Manson could have been dealing with something bigger that he could not publicly discuss, and that could have affected his way of handling the Jeordie situation, because it does look like it was kind of swept out of the way. You can imagine how things would've been in 2021, had Manson not parted ways with Jeordie, and had he publicly loudly defended him.
Here, Greta Aurora interviewed by Colonel Kurtz on youtube, she explains that Evan's girlfriend Illma contacted her, trying to recruit her into the plan to attack Marilyn Manson months before the 2021 allegations came out. They were contacting women who had been in a relationship or had a sexual encounter with Manson and having skype calls planning this all. The recent Phoenix Rising documentary was planned by Evan since 2019. One of the accusers, Ashley Morgan Smithline, actually admitted in a private instagram chat that was leaked, that they wrote their stories together. This is all very interesting considering the 2021 narrative originally was that they all came out separately?
What do we have already, background reasons that have come up: Sobriety, Family, Musical relationship not working. Let's start with the musical relationship part.
So, their musical relationship wasn't as good as before. This comes through for example in the way that Jeordie did not contribute on the albums after Born Villain (2012). In the 90's he'd been a central bandmember in both the band's image and songwriting process, then after rejoining the band in 2008, this continued to be the case on The High End Of Low, (2009) and Born Villain. On The Pale Emperor, (2015) there was no songwriting or performance by Jeordie, despite him being a member of the band. Heaven Upside Down, (2017) the same thing. Manson also stated in 2018 something that also supports this "musical relationship not as good" point:
Kerrang! asked him to rank his albums from best to worst, and Born Villain was 7th.
“This was a really painfully tortuous record to make, a very troublesome collaboration,” Manson remembers of Born Villain’s creation. “Jeordie [aka Twiggy] wasn’t in a good place at the time, and although he played guitar on the record, I had to replay a lot of it. I learned how to play guitar just to do that, so one of my biggest memories of this is the blisters I had on my fucking fingers.”
This is quite the contrast to what them working together has been known to be before. They have described working together being something that is very easy and Manson has even in the 90's talked about a "telepathic connection"
Actually, we spent most of the time in the studio just looking at each other, trying to communicate telepathically.
Twiggy and I have a system where, a lot of times, I don't have to tell him what I'm thinking; he just knows it.
Their musical collaboration working very well in the past was widely known, and Jeordie is credited for songwriting on a LOT of Marilyn Manson songs, it is a bit strange it didn't work out so well the second time, but things like that happen when tastes and interests change. But as you can understand from here, at the time of the allegations, Jeordie was basically a live member, him not being a part of the band's lineup wasn't was big of a decision that it could have been in the earlier years. This does raise the question, did Jessicka know that there were other problems and see this as an opportunity to attack?
What about the sobriety part?
Jeordie said he was going to take some time to maintain his several years of sobriety. It's known that he has been sober for many years. Jeordie was known for heavy drug use in the 90's, then stopped using drugs for health related reasons as he left Marilyn Manson for the first time in 2002. In the 2000's he was drug free but struggled with alcoholism, before becoming sober in 2010. But considering that Marilyn Manson's own lifestyle is very different and he still was a user of drugs and alcohol at the time, the tour life could offer temptations that Jeordie did not want to deal with. (As of the 2021 allegations, Manson has been reported to have become sober too.)
What else supports this is this interview
Journalist Tom O'Neill told a story about how he was visiting Marilyn Manson. It was mentioned that Jeordie was at the house too, and they did drugs, but Jeordie didn't take part in that. It was only after Jeordie left that the hard drugs were taken out, since Manson didn't want to tempt him into using them again.
What else there is in the background of this, is that Jeordie has mentioned for example in the Hour Of Goon podcast that was ongoing prior to his departure, that he has been dealing with anxiety and he's not as social as he used to be. There are a lot of stories of how he doesn't want to deal with big amounts of people like he used to and for example doesn't really attend concerts on his free time for this reason. Was the touring life something that he didn't feel was so much for him anymore? And struggling with anxiety and depression, as a recovering addict, in a place where other people are drinking and using drugs could be stressful.
Jeordie has also tweeted about his anxiety prior to his departure.
And as for the Family part:
Soon after the allegations, in November 2017, Jeordie posted on social media that his father had passed away. Post 1, Post 2. Though he didn't know his father growing up, he managed to get in contact with him as an adult and form a relationship. It's something that would be a tough thing to deal with, especially in the middle of the allegations drama. Though he posted about his father passing away about a month after the allegations, it was never specified what the cause of death was, -it wasn't exactly something that the public needed to know anyway. It's just that we can't know whether or not this was something sudden or something that could be seen coming. In that sense, if he'd known this was coming up because of an illness for example, it would be completely understandable to want to be there for family instead of on tour.
In addition to this, obviously there can be other issues he's not posting about it's not his entire life that we see on social media. Spending time with family in a time like this, too, for the reason that family most likely isn't looking for social media points or to gossip, could be a very good option generally if one wants to be in a company that's supportive and interested in how he as a person is doing. A lot of people on social media especially react to and discuss things through the lens of "how does this make me look" instead of legitimate concern for the wellbeing of the person that's being dragged through the mud.
Around this same time, Jeordie also broke up with Laney Chantal, whom he was together with for almost a decade. It's unclear whether it was before or after these allegations exactly, but it seems that the whole Jessicka situation did cause a lot of problems for them both, especially as Jessicka did include Laney in her false stories on social media, later resorting to harassment and bullying towards her. Anyhow, this too could be a situation where it'd be understandable to just want to try and handle everything at home instead of being on tour.
So there looks to be multiple reasons that may have affected this thing turning out the way it did. But both Manson and Jeordie's words actually have something backing them up and they actually make far more sense than the narrative people commonly have about this.
Of course, it's understandable on a surface level to go "Okay, 1+1=2" and get the impression that Manson just believed Jessicka and fired Jeordie. I could bring a comparison: At the same time, right after Jessicka's allegations, the Hour Of Goon podcast that Jeordie was doing with Fred Sablan was suddenly discontinued. They first said that there were technical difficulties and they'd soon be back with a new episode. But nothing was heard of it ever again. Of course, you could make a conclusion that the platform it was published on wanted to discontinue it because of the allegations. But that's not what happened. Actually, the podcasting platform that they were using, called Feral Audio, announced in January 2018 that they were shutting down and the podcasts available there were moved to other services. Since then, Hour Of Goon social media pages have occasionally hinted at a return, but it hasn't worked out due to all kinds of issues.
Anyhow, Manson's actions don't exactly go along with how they should be if he'd believed Jessicka and fired Jeordie based on her words. And along with the "He believed her" narrative, Manson and Jeordie should have disassociated from each other, but it doesn't seem like so.
Like as I mentioned above, there was the Kerrang! interview in December 2017 where Manson pretty clearly expressed he's still close friends with Jeordie. "I didn't divorce him as a friend or brother." How do you think that should be understood? And in his tweet announcing the end of their collaboration, I also found it interesting that he didn't just say "I have decided to part ways with Jeordie White" - he specified; "...as a member of Marilyn Manson," which, considering the character limits of Twitter was an interesting addition. So part ways only as a member of Marilyn Manson?
It also does not really sound like MM believed the allegations and disassociated from Jeordie as many seem to believe, as Jeordie was among the first people to hear songs from the newest Marilyn Manson album We Are Chaos, 2020.
The album marks multiple firsts for Manson, from painting the album's cover picture, "Infinite Darkness," to writing several tracks on piano. He also points out proudly that he stretched his vocal range on this record so much that when he played one song for former band mate Twiggy Ramirez, Ramirez asked, "Who is that singing?"
Jeordie also has never expressed any negativity towards MM on social media, still a year after being supposedly "fired and denounced by Manson", he celebrated the 20th anniversary of Mechanical Animals on instagram:
Happy Birthday Mechanical Animals 20 years and a day! Seems like yesterday when we moved to LA to make one of the greatest albums of all time.
One of my proudest moments.@marilynmanson always manages to capture lightning in a bottle. Forever grateful to be a contributor and a witness to that. ⚡️
Does that sound like someone who's been fired? The photo too is a bit, you wouldn't post that kind of a photo with someone you don't like. Of course, the photo is from the late 90's, my point isn't the fact that it exists, it's just that had their friendship and working relationship gone sour the way people think, he'd most likely posted a more neutral photo like a promotional picture or the cover of the album. Not this:
There was also what appears to be a screenshot from instagram dms with Jeordie shared soon after the allegations, in November 2017. However it's censored what exactly Jeordie was responding to, but this fan shared this screenshot with a caption "my life is saved" clearly in relief to the fact that from this is appears that Jeordie and Manson's friendship didn't end, as Jeordie's response to whatever this person messaged him was;
"Manson will ALWAYS be my brother. Nothing can change that."
Had Jeordie been fired by Manson either despite being innocent, just for Manson to appear like a good guy himself, or due to Manson believing the allegations and wanting to denounce him, in neither of these scenarios would Jeordie be saying this. There has to be more to this in the background and clearly there is.
Another thing is cats. I swear this is relevant!
Jeordie used to have a siamese cat called Sadie. He got her on Valentine's Day in 2000, and had the cat with him until February 2019. This cat was mentioned in a song
(Goon Moon - Golden Ball: Sadie is crazy /She likes to lick the ladies) and she was also featured in the Marilyn Manson video diary from 2000.
Jeordie with Sadie.
But Marilyn Manson also has a cat called Sadie. And she looks very similar to Jeordie's Sadie. According to Manson fans that I asked, who were more invested in what is known about Manson's cats. Manson's Sadie is not a Siamese, but more likely a Siamese/Devon Rex mix, (due to the fact that allegedly, Manson is allergic to cats, but Devon Rex is a hypoallergenic breed) but anyway very similar looking to Jeordie's late cat. No one could say exactly when Manson got the cat, but the earliest mentions of her that I could find were on his wife Lindsay Usich's social media in 2019. Fans could tell me that Manson likely got the cat around the same time as Jeordie's Sadie passed away, as they remembered being confused by news of a "New kitten Sadie" and "Sadie passed away" around the same time.
It's not exactly a far fetched idea that maybe Manson named his cat Sadie to honor the cat Jeordie had for a really long time. Either it could have been a "Oh look, someone had kittens for sale and this looks like yours!" Or maybe it could have been out of respect after Sadie no.1 had passed away. Not sure. But anyhow, seems that Manson got his Sadie after Jeordie's departure from the band.
Manson's Sadie: similar fur/eye colour to Jeordie's Sadie.
Yeah so what does this have to do with anything?
Well I find it a bit interesting that I'm supposed to believe that Marilyn Manson believed Jeordie to be a rapist so firmly that he'd fire him from his band, but then a while after he'd get himself pretty much an identical twin to Jeordie's cat, and give it the same name as Jeordie's cat, which would more so look like "haha we best friends." I mean would you want your pet's name to be a reminder of something negative that happened?
So IDK about the "Lol even Manson doesn't support Twiggy" comment I have received. Let me just reply to that once more. It's quite ironic when coming from people who believe the allegations against Manson. You really expect me to believe that had Manson loudly supported Jeordie, you wouldn't be saying "Manson supports him so he is obviously guilty, ew." I don't know, if I believed Manson to be a criminal, I wouldn't really care about his opinion on anyone, he wouldn't necessarily be a good moral judge on anyone? If I believed Manson was guilty, I wouldn't listen to his opinion on who's a good person or not. What IS actually interesting is that Jessicka is trying to push a narrative that Manson believed her and hates Jeordie, that he "did the right thing" but at the same time Manson doesn't seem to behave at all in the way she describes. That's not a question of which one you like more, it's an obvious "This person's words don't match what I can clearly see to be true." Jessicka is obviously a liar.
BUT ABOUT JESSICKA:
So I did say in the beginning of this page that it's Jessicka that's pushing this "Manson believed her and fired Jeordie because of her word" - narrative. She keeps doing it to this day though it doesn't look true at all.
One thing that really is weird is that she initially didn't seem to know whether or not Manson knew about the alleged abuse all along (which he should have) or was he only told about it in 2017? It's either "He knew all along and only reacted in 2017" or "He didn't know at all until I told him after which he immediately reacted." The only one out of these that could make sense is the latter, but it is actually impossible. He would have known.
It's a strikingly similar narrative she has with her "witness" Pete Scharlatt, who, according to her, witnessed the alleged rape happen in 1994 but stayed friends with Jeordie up until the allegations went viral. (Read the full thing on the Pete the witness page) So Pete "witnessed" it but only reacted upon being told about it in 2017? Did he not know what he'd seen? The same case seems to be in her narrative about Manson. This is very interesting as neither Manson or Pete have ever actually confirmed anything and their behavior prior to the allegations or after them doesn't match what Jessicka is saying about their feelings about the situation.
So, as discussed on the Jessicka & Manson part 2 page, Jessicka was initially attacking Manson and listing "He employs a rapist" as a problem she has with him. Now, this would only really be an accusation towards Manson if he knew about it and still continued to employ this alleged rapist. If he was unaware about it, you couldn't really blame him for unknowingly associating with an abuser, right?
Then, after Manson's "I never knew about these allegations until recently" - statement, Jessicka thought to clear things up with a Twitlonger post, in which she stated: "We simply spoke and I give him the facts and details regarding his ex bass player. It was 100% his decision to fire him."
How true does that sound now that you've gone through this page? But anyway, here the story already changed. So, Manson didn't know anything and she told him some facts and he believed immediately? Story changes as Manson has said he didn't know anything, of course. As stated a couple times above, it's pretty impossible for him to not have known. And as discussed on the Jessicka & Manson part 2 page, Jessicka was seemingly specifically attacking Manson publicly with slanderous claims because he wasn't complying with her wishes immediately upon being presented with them. This drama didn't start in 2017 either, the abuse allegations from Jessicka started already in 2015, these people share friends. Jessicka's "he believed me immediately" doesn't make sense at all, because had she gotten some sort of conclusive evidence to convince Manson immediately with, she could have presented that all to him already in 2015, not only after the claims went viral in 2017. A lot of this is just about how it looks on a surface level.
And really, it's kind of important, because had Manson been aware of this alleged abuse all this time, it would take away all that's left of the concern and complaisance in Manson's response. He'd be kind of a dick actually even though he'd actually fired Jeordie "because of the allegations," because he'd been aware and done nothing for all this time. Jessicka shouldn't have been thanking him at all, the response would've been more a "Finally." and not a "I'm speechless and thankful."
Whatever the case, she keeps tweeting about this with varying details on her several accounts, which those that have followed this closely a long time know, Jessicka uses her band accounts to seek out Jeordie supporters to have an argument with, claims not to run the accounts but has been caught forgetting to switch. This can be read about on the I'm not Jessicka page. - And also, what kind of a "page admin" would be writing their personal opinions and taking part in a discussion such as this anyway, filling Jessicka's social media platforms with a topic she claims she's "triggered" by? Yeah, it's Jessicka running these accs. A "page admin" trusted for the job of running a social media account for another person would keep this kind of drama out of it in order to keep the appearance of the pages professional.
Fairly recently, in May, I was sent screenshots of a time when the JOJ official twitter account aka Jessicka went after someone on twitter who was discussing these claims, she was demanding the tweets to be taken down and behaving pretty aggressively, and this issue of Jeordie getting fired was yet again brought up.
Uhh. So how is it that Manson now knew all along again? Wouldn't all of this be even more of a reason to dislike Manson and not appreciate his vague response where he states he "had no idea" and "wished him well"? How on earth was Jessicka so satisfied with the outcome in October 2017? And you can pretty much see from here that this stuff is being made up on the spot. Also, if Manson then knew all along that these statements were true in their entirety, then why did he react only in 2017 when the whole issue went viral. Why would he still be friends with Jeordie?
And in case you're interested, you can read the Why didn't he sue? page which explains in full detail why it's very hard to "claim innocence" in allegations like this.
But this doesn't seem to concern Jessicka, actually what seems to concern Jessicka is that Jeordie hasn't issued a statement in support of Marilyn Manson in the allegations against him and is still on good terms with his accusers. Well, is on good terms with his close friend Fred Sablan who supported ERW, and also he's on good terms with his ex wife Laney Chantal who supported ERW, the rest is based on who follows who on social media and that doesn't exactly tell anything. But here Jessicka's sticking to it.
Again what on earth? "Manson fired him because he had the evidence." What evidence? Can't exactly be anything too conclusive if Manson is still friends with Jeordie as you can see on this page. What kind of evidence could there even be of things that happened 30 years ago when there were no text messages, emails, photos were more rarely taken, no social media. The entire reason why this whole case is so hard to solve is that there's hardly anything to start with.This doesn't go along with the "Luckily I at least had a witness" thing either.
If Jessicka's whole story was true, she would also consider Manson an asshole, but here she's concerned about Jeordie "screwing Manson over" and "throwing his friend under the bus" this should not concern her. And had she been telling the truth and had Manson believed her and "seen the evidence" him and Jeordie would not even be friends to start with, so what "friend" would Jeordie even be screwing over? Are they friends or not?
"Tries to blame it all on Manson?" Where did he say that? This is literally her just trying to make sure Manson's fans don't look into the claims she's made by trying to claim Jeordie has gone against Manson. He has not said anything negative about Manson, people associated to him have.
But does Jessicka think Marilyn Manson is innocent? Looks like it. Could explain why in 2021 when the Manson allegations dropped, she surprisingly did not jump along to the bandwagon and only really tweeted about Jeordie in connection. This is also very interesting because of what was detailed on the Jessicka & Manson part 2 page: As Jessicka was attacking Manson, most likely to pressure him into firing Jeordie, she brought up "Manson hitting his girlfriends", but she took that back and deleted all such posts about Manson, demanded others to take them down as "outdated." So did she think Evan's hints towards abuse were false already then? If she could just take them back and not be so concerned after?
What's going on? Okay, listen:
1. Marilyn Manson "believing Jessicka and firing Jeordie" is the one thing that has probably the most weight in the situation. People mainly were expecting a reaction from Manson and took his reaction as a confirmation to Jessicka's allegations. But now that Manson is also accused of abuse, the whole situation takes away that weight. If Manson is a "horrible person", his opinion on Jeordie no longer matters, because an abuser is not exactly a good judge on who is a good person and who's not. The situation has raised questions among people who believe Jeordie to be innocent but aren't sure about Manson: Did Manson "fire" Jeordie from his band to avoid suspicion towards himself and to seemingly denounce that kind of behavior as not to bring that spotlight onto himself? (Personally don't think that's the case at all)
2. Manson's fans have been hesitant to discuss the allegations towards Jeordie. Jessicka knows this as she has been following the discussion about Jeordie. A lot of Marilyn Manson fans are hesitant because they are too invested in the Manson allegations and simply don't have time. Some are suspicious of Jeordie because he's seemed to be on good terms with some of Manson's accusers. The "Manson believed Jessicka and fired Jeordie" narrative is also something that makes Manson look like the good guy, so for some it is hard to look into that more than that. Jeordie being brought up as a point against Manson is dodged by some with a "but he fired him."
3. Along with the hesitation to discuss, there have been some fans theorizing that maybe Jeordie is in on the attack towards Manson, because he hasn't said anything, has gone completely quiet on social media, and has been on good terms with some of the accusers and Evan supporters, such as Ashley Walters, Laney Chantal, Fred Sablan, Dan Cleary, Esme Bianco.
There is an explanation to this "Why isn't Twiggy saying anything :(" that is very likely, though: When the allegations dropped, Jeordie went even more inactive than before on social media. With his close friendship to Manson he's probably under a lot of pressure to say something and anything he does on social media might be taken as a step towards one side or another. It would be completely understandable for him to only speak when asked about it in a legal context. We don't know if he's still friends with others than his ex wife Laney and close friend Fred, neither of whom are "main accusers", more so people who've just jumped on to the anti-Manson bandwagon.
Due to his inactivity on social media, -which was also a thing already before the allegations, who he follows or doesn't follow isn't exactly an accurate representation of who he's associated with in his daily life. He also can't really say anything in defense of Manson just on social media or an interview, the public would discredit it with what he was accused of and see him as a contributor or an enabler in the alleged actions. Imagine him commenting to Rolling Stone and then it being published with a caption; "says Marilyn Manson's close friend, accused rapist," what a disservice would that be!
There's so many far more understandable explanations to his silence than him "back stabbing, betraying Manson", like some seem to think.
Look at the big picture. It also in a public garbage fire such as these cases most often is the wisest thing to stay away as not to make it worse.
This is why it would be also important for Manson fans to look into the Jeordie situation, because even if your main concern wasn't Jeordie, as it is understandable to not have time to get fully invested in both, it would benefit them both for us to be on track with both of the cases.
Another thing about the "Jeordie's definitely in on the plan to take Manson down because he wants revenge for Manson firing him" theory that doesn't make sense...
Evan Rachel Wood mentioned Jeordie negatively in her Phoenix Rising documentary, as a point that Jeordie's return to the band and into Manson's life had been something that changed Manson for the worse. She did not imply that Jeordie had participated in abusive behavior, just that his return had an impact on Manson. Had he been actively participating in the attack towards Manson, this would not have been ever said, it doesn't seem that Evan sees him as an ally in her project. This is discussed on my page about it here, and Marilyn Manson Uncanceled also wrote a review on the situation on his website here.
(Jeordie's close friend Fred Sablan was featured in the documentary, and some of Jeordie's fans saw it as a betrayal towards Jeordie, as pushing Manson down also pushes Jeordie down, and Evan had portrayed Jeordie in such a negative light, further confirming the public's opinion of him as a criminal. Interestingly, soon after the documentary aired, I was messaged that Fred had actually unfollowed Evan on instagram despite being supportive of her prior to the documentary airing. I don't know if this is true as I have no access to his instagram which is private and I doubt he would let me follow. Did Fred disagree with Evan on that part? Kind of would look like Fred's problem with Manson was something personal rather than him actually witnessing anything...)
Also, if Jeordie wanted to "win over" the public to try and clear his reputation by siding with these accusers, - well. The public has a very short memory when it comes to scandals, I have noticed. Something goes viral and it's all over everything until the next topic comes up. Even some Manson fans seem to have no idea what went down in his case. If he wanted to try and get points, try and use this situation to lift himself up, I would think it would actually maybe have been easier for him to do that instead of staying silent like he has. The public would barely remember what happened with him and they'd be more interested in what negative he'd say about Manson.
Of course, Manson fans would hate him, but is the public listening to Manson fans? - Not really. I mean it seems that when someone is being cancelled, if you're talking badly of that person, whatever you've done doesn't matter anymore, for example one of the people talking negatively and hailed as a hero, Dan Cleary, has made disgusting comments himself and joked about raping people in a podcast, it's "Just humour" all the while Manson's song lyrics are "conclusive evidence" and him "admitting to abuse." And well Jeordie could've had the accusers on his side saying "Yeah Twiggy was totally innocent and Manson just wanted to fire him to make himself look like someone who doesn't accept this kind of behavior, so he wouldn't have this kind of negative attention and suspicious eyes on him. that's just how twisted he is."
But he still to this day has not said a word about Manson negatively. Maybe because lying about him would only be a very short lived victory that would backfire in the long run. The only thing was that, if I remember correctly, he was listed as a witness in one of the court cases, possibly Esme Bianco's, but so far nothing has come out on whether or not he's said anything. Being listed as a possible witness doesn't tell anything about what he's going to say, and if you believe Manson is innocent and also well, lying under oath would get him in a lot of trouble and only further hurt his reputation, what do you think he could possibly say? ( Interestingly, Jeordie was reported to have unfollowed Esme on instagram earlier this year. )
Jeordie most likely is just in a shitty position where everyone's watching what he's going to do and he may not be able to speak on it publicly, there could be a lot of pressure. He's not active on social media anyway, could imagine that just avoiding this all would be what I'd personally do in a similar situation.
This "Jeordie's revenge theory" is just something thought up by impatient fans who only see this situation as "Manson is in trouble and Twiggy isn't helping" which, is quite ironic overall if you think of how the Twiggy situation looks on a surface level too, who's backstabbing who? Well neither are backstabbing each other if you take the time to do the research, haha. And well I mean, to believe this, wouldn't you have to believe Manson backstabbed Jeordie to begin with, which then in turn would kind of be a valid reason for him not to want to defend him... Lol I think he isn't saying anything because as I said, it'd be a disservice with how the mainstream media would present it in a way harmful to Manson. I don't know. Jeordie's never come across as exactly a very spiteful or petty person and the evidence on this page kinda shows they don't exactly hate each other anyway so... But it's good that people theorize and look for answers I got nothing against that.
So anyway. Manson being innocent would benefit Jessicka's narrative. I don't think she legitimately cares about Manson any more than that, it's been shown in her behavior. Feeding the "Jeordie screwing Manson over" suspicion among some fans is a grasping at straws attempt at once again using anything she can to twist the narrative into something that benefits her. Manson fans defending Manson would give Manson "firing" Jeordie the "confirmation status" back in regards to her own allegations, and Manson fans believing Jeordie is against Manson would benefit her original point which was very obviously to turn Manson fans against Jeordie. She could benefit from her association to Marilyn Manson again in a way that damages Jeordie. It's just that if Manson fans were to believe everything Jessicka was saying, they would also have to believe Manson to be an asshole? This can't work in the long run.
This parallels the situation through the 2000s discussed on the Jessicka & Manson part 1 page. She was claiming Manson was not friends with Jeordie anymore and had "gotten rid of him" and was very close with her, it was this smug and taunting tone towards Jeordie. The problem for her was always Jeordie's collaboration and association with Marilyn Manson, when Jeordie played with NIN and APC, it was like he disappeared. That whole time is completely forgotten in her narratives all the time.
So no, this wasn't the 1+1=2 you thought it would be. Not only is she putting words in Marilyn Manson's mouth, she's holding on to a disprovable narrative. The people involved in her stories aren't up to date with what she's saying, aren't behaving like she claims they are and her story does not make any sense.
Anything said on social media or this site is a fan's ramblings, I don't know Jeordie personally. THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL WEBSITE AND HAS NOT BEEN MADE IN ANY CONTACT TO JEORDIE/TWIGGY.