general-issues-with-emails | Justice for Twiggy

GENERAL ISSUES WITH THE EMAILS CLAIM

On this page, let's look at some issues this claim of having received emails from multiple victims really has, and why is it sketchy.

Now, first of all, where are all these other women (even young girls) that Jessicka has mentioned? The existence of these emails is very hard to prove, just for the sake of confidentiality, really. But as we saw with the Marilyn Manson case just this year, (which will not be addressed on this site since there already is a huge discussion about it) some fans did come out with their own stories about him. (And the credibility of those accounts is also something that will be discussed elsewhere, this is page is for the Twiggy discussion we never really got.)

Surely there would be some willing to have their story shared? Surely at least someone who'd been in a longer relationship with him would want to also talk? He's dated celebrities who wouldn't find it as intimidating to speak out as maybe a fan would?

There's several issues with this story anyway.

First, one thing that a lot of people uninformed about the details of Jeordie's career and background don't know is that when looking at his family background, this "preyed on young women, abused his power" situation seems a bit weird. Let's talk about that.

Throughout his career, Jeordie has proudly brought up his mother and his aunt, both of whom were groupies in their youth, and this way brought a lot of musical influence into his life. Jeordie stated for example in an episode of the Hour Of Goon podcast, titled "GiGi BeeGee" after his late aunt, that the stories he was told about this lifestyle and the bandmembers, especially Robin Gibb of the Bee Gees, ended up inspiring the Twiggy Ramirez persona.

In the 90's interviews, Jeordie would bring up his mother a lot especially.

Twiggy: America's Androgynous Superstar' by Paul Gargano. Published by Movie Mirror in a Marilyn Manson exclusive special issue. 1997

The excitement of the music industry is nothing new to Twiggy, who grew up entrenched in the music industry. "I was born of the road, I'm not exactly sure where because my mom used to dance onstage for Mountain, Leslie West's band. She used to dance for the Kinks as well," he said, implying that his father might be either the guitar legend West, or the Kinks' Ray Davies. "When I was growing up I was around music constantly. My aunt, who I was living with, was a groupie as well, and she was friends with the Ramones, they would come over and she used to date one of the Bee Gees."

Visions magazine - 2000:

Visions: Are there people you respect a lot?

Twiggy: Dave Wyndorf/Monster Magnet, James Hetfield/Metallica, and Marilyn Manson for their musical success. George Lucas for creating "Star Wars".

Visions: What about respect for other people apart from music?

Twiggy: I don't have to mention anymore than my mom. She had the greatest influence on my life. She was more cool and more rock n'roll than I'll ever be, something I understood bit by bit. When I grew up I never wanted to listen to Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, the Stooges or MC5 and only because my mom liked them. That was fucking death and thrash metal by Celtic Frost or Venom. Today I'm the biggest fan of my mom's heroes.

Guitar School, 1997:

Ramirez: Can I say something about my mom?

GS: Sure, Twiggy. We wouldn't want to leave her out of this.

Ramirez: I was brought up for most of my childhood by my mom, so there's a bit of mystery as to who my father is. She used to dance for Mountan, Leslie West...

GS: No way!

Manson: ...in a cage.

Ramirez: The stuff that's for real is crazier than the stuff I'm making up. She used to dance in the cage for Mountain, naked. And she used to do The Jerk onstage with the Kinks. I swear. So my dad is probably either Leslie West or Ray Davies. Who knows which one.

Now, of course, these are a bit exaggerated in the typical "pick an interesting thing and bring it further for your rockstar image" way, but there is truth to this too. His mother and aunt were groupies and cage dancers, but the part about Jeordie's father being unknown and him "being born on the road" was later on revealed to be untrue. For example in an episode of Hour Of Goon where Jeordie discusses attending his grandfather's funeral it's mentioned that he was born and lived the first years of his life in New Jersey. His mother and father, according to later social media posts were even married prior to him being born, but his parents separated when he was little and his father wasn't present in his life at all in his youth, he was raised by his mother and only got to know his father better as an adult.

The "born on the road" while not seeming exactly true, might still not be that far from truth though, as Jeordie also later on Hour Of Goon explained that when he was a child, his family mover around a lot, basically a new school every year for him until they settled in Florida when he was in middle school. This, he said he hated at the time due to the fact that it made it hard for him to maintain friendships, but later learned to appreciate the seeing the world aspect of it. And then, when starting to play in bands and tour, he'd say "I used to live here" at basically every destination and people would think he's making it up. Well, you could say he'd been on tour all his childhood and the traveling part wasn't new to him.

- Could maybe see this as, maybe if not having a present father was something a bit sad, he concentrated more on what is cool about his mother and his childhood and made this cool mom and traveling a lot as a kid a part of his "rockstar origin story" this way, like becoming a rockstar was inevitable as he'd been living that life all along.

Now, why I bring this up, what does this have to do with anything?

It's just that based on this, the "model of a woman" Jeordie had in his life was a very, -as he's described his mother on Hour Of Goon; free and independent, do what I want type, and he literally grew up with groupies as those women he looks up to the most. This creates two questions now:

With this kind of upbringing, wouldn't you think that they would have told him the dangerous sides of that kind of lifestyle too? How it can also be, what NOT to do? Maybe they'd told him of negative experiences too. Especially when Jeordie's mother was going to his early shows and watching that career grow? Surely he would have a perspective that a lot of guys in bands might not have? And it at least could have, in the lifestyle he had backstage, have him keep that perspective, that the girls, women backstage as either colleagues or fans or groupies, they are people with lives and families, not someone to just take advantage of.

Another thing is, almost the same point, that misogynistic attitudes don't come from thin air, they usually have roots in the person's upbringing and family structure. But it doesn't exactly seem like Jeordie had a bad example in that. He was raised by groupies and that was normal to him. He grew up appreciating that. So I don't see why jealousy or seeing women as less than men, seeing them as something to abuse and take advantage of, how that kind of thing would match the upbringing he had? Where would that attitude come from?

Then, there's discussion, people talk. There's forums for groupies too, where Jeordie has been discussed.

This, of course I was not around in the 90's personally, but I have been talking with fans who were really deep into the Manson discussion in the early days of the internet, late 90's, as well as frequently attended shows and were in on all the gossip. None of them say that anything like this ever came up, and if anyone was worried, it was more so about Jeordie's health in the late 90's as he was using a lot of drugs and he was very skinny.

And there are messageboards where this kind of stories were shared in the mid 00's. There was a Jeordie thread, it was pretty uninteresting, all they said was that he smells like baby powder and should maybe shower more often. And these boards did offer the anonymity in case anyone would've wanted to share, some bands had threads like "STD WARNING!! GET TESTED IF YOU WERE WITH THIS GUY" people were pretty open, and even rumours were shared, but Jeordie was not a widely discussed person at all. In my research I read a n c i e n t messageboards, some old emails groups I was linked too, and in none did any kind of rumours about any sort of abuse come up. (There is one story that was on twitter though,is discussed here on the Korzkit page in this same section, but seems like that is the only one, and also it's details make it look unreliable.)

Had this been this big secret hidden in plain sight, where are all these women Jessicka's talking about? And why would they only think to contact Jessicka? Once again we get to the issue with both the Witness Pete and Marilyn Manson, where "they knew, they witnessed, but only acknowledged it and reacted until I said so!" Like it seems that neither Pete or Manson felt anything at all until according to Jessicka, having all the emotions about the alleged abuse only decades later when Jessicka made them aware of it, though they'd always known??? So were all these I've heard even 50 women, all of them, only acknowledging this to and with Jessicka, through her and because of her? Does not sound very credible.

And like, if she's now been falsely accusing me of death threats, I find it interesting that still not one has thought to contact me? Wouldn't they stick together and help each other? Everyone in Jessicka's story seems really like they're just leaving her in the ditch despite her being this big hero whistleblower. It's a bit suspicious.

I find it strange that there would be this much, and not a single another story made public. A lot of people don't even know that she had an email address she could be contacted through to start with. Jeordie has dated celebrities, bandmembers, who could have just made these stories public easily if they'd had one. Especially out of solidarity for Jessicka? Someone who would have experienced the same would feel bad for her and try to help her out by confirming this stuff?

And then there is the issue, that IF she did receive emails, if we aren't shown what they are like and who is telling the story, there is no way of really knowing of the legitimacy of them. She may have been contacted by someone, sure, but just the fact that someone may have done so doesn't actually yet mean that anything happened. Then there is the issue too, that if the writer of the story isn't told, we can't close out the possibility of the story being written by Jessicka herself, as there would at this point with her being caught with accounts she claims not to run be valid doubt about the authenticity of an email she alleges to have received.

There are a lot of issues with this email claim, just saying "I have received emails" does not prove anything at all.

One is this: Really anyone could write anything.

And there are mentally ill people who genuinely believe they're involved in the drama. I have been contacted by someone like this. Note that the things this person said are FALSE, as in NOT TRUE, this is an example of the "anyone can write/receive anything online" : This person alleged that she'd been sexually assaulted by Jessicka in 1991 at the age of 12, and that she had confided to Jeordie with this story and gotten his support. This then had resulted to Jessicka stalking her, for example driving around her school to try and find her. (if you're screenshotting, this is a false story) She also alleged that she had witnessed Jessicka put broken glass and needles into Jeordie's shoes so that he would hurt his feet, and that Jessicka had been briefly institutionalized due to her violent behavior, after an incident where Pete had called the cops on her because she was beating Jeordie. (if you screenshot this, still a false story) This person alleged that Jessicka would sometimes punch Jeordie in the ribs because he was skinnier and she felt insecure about her own weight because of his thinner figure. (still a false story) She also stated that Jessicka didn't like to be photographed randomly, and on one incident Jeordie had taken a photo of her suddenly, and she had gotten so angry that she'd punched Jeordie in the face repeatedly.

Now, I could just mention this and leave it there. But I looked into this user's profile, read their story carefully. It's 100% FALSE and I will not include a screenshot of the messages I received, because I don't want people to take it out of context elsewhere. Because IT'S FALSE. This person gave me their alleged full name, photos, told a lot of things, but the writing was frantic and incoherent, and the person she claimed to be, someone adjacent to Jeordie with this name she gave, I could confirm that this person she claimed to be literally does not exist.

This person clearly was dealing with psychotic symptoms, this story was not, cannot be true, it was impossible for many reasons, it was full of false, impossible statements and largely the events at which she claimed to have been present at were clearly moments from dvds and interviews. One of these obviously false things was for example that she was talking about Jeordie having the tattoo "1971" on his arm in 1993. He got the tattoo over a decade after, he could not have had it then. It was also explained as Jeordie getting the tattoo to cover a bruise, which makes no sense whatsoever.

And the "randomly taken unflattering photo" which caused a beating, it was described to me and I instantly recognized it as something Jessicka had posted on social media years ago. It was not unflattering, it was this person's opinion, it was an old photo of Jessicka doing a funny face while having fun with friends. They'd clearly imagined that situation around it.

What else there was, a telltale sign that this person was unhealthily obsessed with Jeordie instead of actually knowing him was that when discussing all of this, she spoke like everything revolved around Jeordie. As in, Jeordie's family would discuss his business, his relationships, his problems without him present and tell this person everything. That she would receive postcards where details of his dating life were discussed. This is clearly just what someone that wishes they were somehow close to a celebrity thinks things are like. That being somehow involved with the person would be a front row seat to all the gossip and that the celebrity would be the main character of the lives of everyone around them. But well, you know, I could reasonably assume that to Jeordie's family, he's just Jeordie. A son, a brother, a cousin, a husband and so on and so on. Not someone they'd want to gossip about?

Also, close friends or whatever of a celebrity do not refer to interviews or other public appearances often like this person did. They often go by memory, they have more information than the public appearances, that's not their main source like it is to a fan.

The story was so strange, incoherent, impossible, that it would be extremely irresponsible to claim it to be true. And if I said "Really?" to something, that would be enough to spark this person to pretty much make up more on the spot, turn it even more shocking, so I stopped responding. Also because the messages just kept coming I couldn't keep up, flooding my inbox.

And here comes the responsibility issue. When you have a belief that you genuinely believe to be true, you're looking for evidence to support it. Therefore, when someone is sending you something like this, you have to ask yourself: Does this make sense or is this person just telling me what I could accept as true due to my belief, does this make sense or is it just beneficial to my belief?

Even if your intentions were pure, you wanted justice for someone or something, you have to be responsible in what is true, what is verifiable, what is false. Because this kind of things affect your credibility. If you've gathered a lot of genuinely good evidence, it will not be taken as seriously if there is an obvious lie in there.

Then it's also a bit of an interesting question too, - do you want the story to be true because it fits your beliefs? Are you looking only for confirming details and overlooking those that contradict? But isn't it a bit sick to want something like that to be true at the same time? As much as I believe Jeordie to be innocent, as much as it seems Jessicka abused him, I don't WISH that he'd been physically hurt just so I could get a story to post about, I don't necessarily want gruesome details, it doesn't excite me to see someone say something like that, it makes me uncomfortable.

It is also extremely morally questionable to take advantage of a mentally ill person's fragile state and use their story to push anything, whether your initial cause is true or false.

And this is also a question on the "believe everyone" thing, because, well. Though this story was false, it can be something this person genuinely believes to have happened. There's perspectives, there's beliefs, there's misunderstandings, there's delusions. Am I an abuse apologist when I saw this story to be false?

And if Jessicka were to actually have received emails, how many of them could be like this? We can't know that. It's to be noted that at her and Jeordie's level of fame, especially what it was in 2017, it would be very possible that there would have been stories like this, that were not true, but delusions. And she hasn't exactly been honest about a lot of things, so I'd find it hard to believe she would think of those responsibilities I just mentioned.

Another issue is the psychological effect this kind of negative attention towards a person can have on an observer. There's somewhat a peer pressure as well.

Could compare to a more recent situation. On the day the Marilyn Manson allegations went viral, my social media feed was filled with negative comments of him. There were fans burning their pictures of Manson, there were people saying "if you support Marilyn Manson, we're not friends anymore."

People are shocked about the alleged actions and they want to make it known that they don't support those. People that have largely identified themselves with the status of a Mansonite may feel pressure to say something, anything, as if the public is asking them what they think. Even I felt like I had to somehow make it known that though some know me as a fan of Manson, I would never accept the things he's accused of. People just in that shock can't tell apart are they disgusted by the actions he's accused of or the person who's accused.

I stated I stand with Manson, and I was met with messages from friends that were angrily demanding me to change my mind. - They took my opinion as me saying that ALL people alleging abuse are lying. Of course I don't think that. They would tell me their personal stories of being raped and act as if I'd be happy that's happened to them. Of course I would never wish that upon anyone. Me supporting Manson was seen as me supporting the act of rape.

When the social media discussion becomes an echo chamber of "guilty until proven innocent" and there isn't much of contrary evidence supported, it's very normal that people want to get rid of the uncertainty of how to feel about the situation. They generally trust the mainstream media, they generally want to keep their friends and not lose their support. In this kind of a situation they may look into the past for something to confirm, just so they could get rid of the uncertainty; through the lens of "oh my god this person is a creep" things that before the accusations were just harmless jokes can look like something else.

In my investigations, going through social media discussions I saw this same effect. There was for example a comment from a Jessicka supporter, ex Jeordie fan, that was like: "I totally believe her. I met Jeordie at [some sort of a convention] and he was pretty awkward, didn't talk to me much. Probably just thought I should have been a hot chick to deserve his attention, god, what a creep!" Like; what is this story other than "He didn't talk to me as much as I'd expected, meeting him wasn't as special as I'd expected. I took it personally, is there something wrong with me?" the "creep" is just a layer added by the shock about the allegations.

I have several personal stories of meeting bandmembers, being invited backstage and being told sexual jokes, - that if I just didn't mention the fact that I laughed along, 100% comfortable having a great time, probably in a #metoo discussion would sound absolutely disgusting to someone who's only listening to them to hear something confirming the accusations.

An example story: a musician friend of mine was at a bar with me. We went out for a cigarette and it was just the two of us outside. He took out his dick and said, "Yeah just thought it'd be the kinda moment to do that" It was so out of nowhere that I laughed my ass off. I laughed because he's my friend and there was nothing threatening in that situation. He did that because I'm his friend and he knew I would not be uncomfortable. It happened because we are friends. Now, if I just told that story and only told the listener what he had done, instead of including the fact that I was fine with it, it would sound like sexual harassment. Especially if I expressed it implying we were strangers to each other.

See the way a story is told depends on what kind of a reaction is wanted, it also depends on what reaction the storyteller is getting while telling the story. Different things are highlighted depending on the situation and the company the story is told at. This is very subconscious. Then the reaction, how the story is understood, depends on what the listener thinks about the discussed issues beforehand, what things they wish to be confirmed by what's said.

If that cigarette situation had happened with Jeordie, or Manson (did not, never met either of them) the way it could be told and understood would most likely differ depending on was the story told before or after the #metoo situation.

Have personally witnessed it happen that someone told me happily and proudly about the time they'd met Marilyn Manson, that it had been the best day of their life - and then after the allegations this same person shared the exact same story in a tabloid's comment section but it was described negatively, that the jokes and hugs had been one sided. The story didn't change any other way than this person leaving out the fact they'd had fun and actively participated in the jokes and whatever happened and it sounded so creepy portrayed like that. That was the shock reaction working, that's what the social pressure does. After the shock wore off this person stands with Manson.

In this case; there is yet again the problem: Even if Jessicka had received emails from someone, we don't know the full story, will likely never know the full story. We don't know if the story was different prior the allegations and actually neither does Jessicka. Without seeing these stories we can't decide for ourselves what they are like, and it does matter who is telling it. Was the story turned negative with the layer of disgust added in reaction to the allegations or was it always negative? Jessicka doesn't know the full context, she can't decide for us whether they're legit or not because had she received a story, she would not have personally witnessed it, and she's not exactly known for honesty either, so how is it that she can just claim something like this and people will be just like "Oh my god!"

"I have received emails" - how many are just shocked people talking about stuff like a joke he told at a meet and greet in 2006 that in hindsight, in shock, in context of the allegations would sound creepy if thought of with the layer of "an alleged rapist said this." How many are just incoherent rambles sent in by someone?

You cannot call him a serial abuser. There is NO evidence that suggests that. Jessicka is the only one with actual accusations and they are sketchy as hell. She lied about Laney in context of these "emails", so why should this "people emailed me" be credible in any way?

What this "several women" storyline really seems to be is that Jessicka is concealing her own motive which is publicly humiliating and harassing Jeordie to get back at him for rejecting her and "stealing her look" which is also more just her belief than the truth. This is a selfish motivation, but by pushing this "I'm doing this for all of these other women" thing she can conceal that to appear like this whole thing was just something she "had to do for everyone else's safety". It's nothing more than that.

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