Driving.

So let's discuss the issue of driving. There was a lot that revolved around Jessicka having a car and Jeordie not having one or even a driver's license,what's up with these things? These issues that revolved around driving caused people to both believe and disbelieve - let's look through it. 

What did she say?

Jeordie not having a car or a driver's license was first mentioned as a part of the alleged jealous behavior, as Jeordie was portrayed trying to stop Jessicka from leaving by slashing his tires or more extremely, stacking junkyard TVs behind her car so that she couldn't leave. The first instance of the alleged physical abuse also took place in a car. 

"He slashed my tires."

Then later;

"The physical abuse did not start until a few months later when Jeordie took a cage full of our pet white mice and dumped them into my mother's car that I was borrowing at the time. That is the first day I can remember him hitting me over me over and over as the mice scattered. He later apologized profusely and said it would never happen again.

But it happened again, and again, and often. He stacked junk yard TVs in front of my car so I could not leave as he did not have a car or could drive at the time."

Another more extreme portrayal of this jealousy that was mentioned regarding this car situation was this:

"He got increasingly jealous when I hung out with male friends. He jumped into the New River as a protest to me giving a male friend a ride home. "

Now, it was fairly well known out of public information that Jeordie didn't have a driver's license at the time of the alleged events, as Jeordie had mentioned this himself in interviews of the late 90's. This, for some was a "confirming point" as - it's true that he couldn't drive, but for others it was a bit suspicious, because of what else was said in the same statement. 

"Trent Reznor was in South Florida around this time and we all went out on night. Trent and I struck up a conversation and Jeordie became so enraged he demanded we leave immediately. He began driving my car erratically on the highway, all the while punching me the chest several times,knocking the air out of my lungs. He proceeded to rip off the rear view mirror and threw it out the open window. Throughout the madness, this was a rather poignant moment. He just couldn’t bear to face himself in that mirror.

 

I feared for my life that night. I stayed awake while he slept. At this point I wanted to leave him, but at this time most of my friends who had not moved away were also too enmeshed in the Manson camp to find a way to do the right thing and stand up for me. No one was comfortable speaking about it, let alone thinking of exposing to the world the horror I was dealing with."

How would Jeordie just start driving erratically if he had no driver's license? I mean, of course, whether or not someone has a driver's license doesn't exactly dictate whether one knows how to drive, but Jessicka did say herself in this very same statement that Jeordie couldn't drive. Had it just been a case of not having a license, it wouldn't have had to be separately specified like that. This is really weird. 

Alright. Let's go through each part. The question of public information is key here. 

First, the stacking of junkyard TV's. 

This, by itself is a very strange claim. Stacking junkyard TVs behind someone's car isn't exactly a very effective way of making someone leave. It takes time to carry them, and where did Jeordie get the TVs from? Did he carry them one by one from somewhere? As mentioned, he did not have a car and couldn't drive, he would have had to carry bulky and heavy old TVs all by himself, which would take forever, during which time Jessicka could have easily left.

 

And well, I wonder if anyone's tested, but while an old bulky TV like that is a hassle to lift and carry from one place to another, it probably isn't that heavy that a car couldn't push it out of the way. - Then again, whatever the case is, even if so, it wouldn't matter, as had this happened, a car being able to push the TVs out of the way wouldn't erase the intention to cause distress and restrict one's freedom to go wherever they want. But that was a point of effectiveness. A TV wouldn't be the first thing at hand when intending to do something like this. 

It would also attract unwanted attention and, well, where was the "protective roommate?" wonder what he thought of all of this? Did he help Jessicka? Did he wonder what Jeordie was doing? 

This already sounds like such a hassle, and more like a song lyric idea or something like that. I did think that maybe this happened in a movie. Metaphorically you could maybe think that this could be a portrayal of how Jeordie's success was seen as an obstacle by Jessicka. That Jeordie got to be on TV as this big rockstar while at the same time Jack Off Jill was compared to Marilyn Manson and seen as "the girl manson" where Jessicka was "the girl Twiggy". This is definitely a thing that angered her. It could be that seeing Jeordie on TV made her think of how she's not on TV, maybe it felt like mockery. 

But what's more interesting is a message I received from a fellow fan. They told me to look into a band called Skew Siskin, more specifically the artworks in the booklet on their album, Album Of The Year (2003). Jeordie is credited for photography, and the photo he'd taken is a, - you guessed it, pile of junkyard TVs on the side of the road. This fan remembered seeing this on the Base Tendencies website, but the link was broken, the photo had been deleted. After a fruitless search of places I could possibly find it online, I ended up just buying the CD, and well, here you go:

 

Skew Siskin Jeordie White
Skew Siskin Jeordie White

Uhh, this can't just be a coincidence...

What's interesting about this is that while this photo taken by Jeordie existing IS public information, it's not necessarily widely known. To have seen this and to be aware of this contribution by Jeordie, you would have had to keep a very close watch on his career and what he's been doing. So two possibilities; Either Jessicka remembered this from seeing it at the time of this album's release, OR she was looking up things about Jeordie's career when she was coming up with her story. 

This TV story is clearly based off public information. The next part I'm looking through too is very interesting:

In the same paragraph, she mentioned that Jeordie hit her in her mother's car after dumping a cage full of pet mice into the car.  Lets repeat:

"The physical abuse did not start until a few months later when Jeordie took a cage full of our pet white mice and dumped them into my mother's car that I was borrowing at the time. That is the first day I can remember him hitting me over me over and over as the mice scattered. He later apologized profusely and said it would never happen again."

This is also strange because it would be kind of relevant to explain what exactly made him act this way? What happened, what was the purpose of this action? And I don't mean that she'd had to write a novel about it, but her story does include a lot of these situations where there is actually no where, why, when, what then, that would make it more credible. In explaining this kind of a situation, it would probably come to mind to say it like "When we were at --- and --- happened, he got so angry that he dumped a cage full of pet white mice..." you know?

And this also, I've never heard Jeordie ever mention having mice as pets. He's had a lot of pets through the years and discussed them on his Hour Of Goon podcast. He's gone through his childhood pets as well as the ones he's had as an adult. He's mentioned rabbits and even something as unusual as a pet goat he'd had as a child, but never mice. 

And I'll also say that this pet white mice scattering + mother's car, combined with an incident of domestic violence, it's such a movie scene yet again. And I know Jessicka is a fan of Todd Solondz for example, and she loves Mark Ryden whose paintings often do combine sort of surreal horror and even blood elements with innocent little children and plush toys, soft white kittens etc. For example, painting - The Cloven Bunny. This is something so very Jessicka-like imagery. 

And it has been noted by many fans, that a lot of these instances that she describes are a bit too creative, - "It's almost like she's writing a poem or something rather than telling a real story. Abuse stories are far more mundane in reality."  was for example one message I received while discussing this all. 

But then there's the public information once again. A fellow fan emailed me about a few things regarding this "mice situation": 

The fan mentioned that this mice story had brought to mind this one episode of Hour Of Goon, In the episode, Fred Sablan tells a story like this: They were celebrating Fred's birthday in a Mexican restaurant and Jeordie showed up with multiple gifts. He handed these boxes one by one to Fred, telling him to shake each gift box, until the last one, which, when handing it to Fred, Jeordie said "Please don't shake this one." This box contained a mouse. Fred was annoyed by this gift as he didn't know what to do with it and where to put it as they were in a restaurant. He said something like "I was annoyed I had to leave that party to take that mouse into my car and leave it there waiting for the rest of the night".

Okay, take Fred out of that story and add in the implication that Jeordie is insane and violent. It very easily can be turned to "Jeordie had a mouse in a box and he was shaking the box and then he ran outside and threw it into my car oh my god."

But well, that is such a small detail and the mouse isn't exactly dumped, it's handled rather carefully. This could just be a coincidence. - But there's another mention of mice:

Alternative Nation, 1997 transcription, filmed 1996:

Toby Amies: So, so what do you all get up to when you're on tour, on your bus and everything. What are the kind of high japes that Marilyn Manson,
Marilyn Manson: High Jinx?
Toby Amies: Yeah. Play tricks on each other? I know you hit everybody else in the band. Do you ever,
Twiggy Ramirez: Bunk bed pirates.
Toby Amies: What?
Twiggy Ramirez: Bunk bed pirates.
Toby Amies: Bunk bed pirates? Is that you all try and get up on top or what exactly, is that a euphemism for some erotic behaviour? (Marilyn laughs)
Marilyn Manson: Um, usually when we're not, uh, well there's live mice and things like that we like to put in one anothers bunks.
Toby Amies: Like Nosferatu, you travel with a lot of rats wherever you go.
Marilyn Manson: Uh, actually I thought that was Richard Gere.
Toby Amies: I think that's gerbils.

Letting live mice loose in bandmates' bunks? - You can probably see from the general tone they're joking. But yeah, once again, as this fan that sent me this stated too, "There is a constant pull from public information."  This very same interview is also discussed regarding the "burning stuffed animals in the oven" - claim on the page about it. It's a bit suspicious that both burning things with kitchen appliances as well as letting loose mice are mentioned in the same interview, and then decades later Jessicka's "abuse story" contains similar anecdotes in pretty much subsequent paragraphs. 

And we continue on with "pull from public information" even more when looking at yet another described claim. Jumping into the New River. 

"He got increasingly jealous when I hung out with male friends. He jumped into the New River as a protest to me giving a male friend a ride home. "

Why does everything revolve around a car seriously... But yeah this one's obviously meant to portray Jeordie as such that he's dangerous to even himself, but it's a bit cheap really. 

A couple questions: In what kind of a situation was this, were they in town and Jeordie got mad and just decided to jump? What happened after? Did he require medical attention? Was 911 called? Is the New River actually dangerous to jump into, with like currents that could pull you down and drown you? Is there a real threat of dying there?

And the next question is that why does this remind us all of that one part in Long Hard Road Out Of Hell...

In Manson's biography book, there is portrayed a situation where Manson's having a bad mushroom trip at a party (somewhere in LA but near a river) and he hears Jeordie talking about a boat, trying to jump into the water...

I don't have the english edition of the book so I'm translating from the finnish edition, this is not an exact quote:

[Manson's been looking for a place where he can be alone as the drugs are making him scared out of his mind, Twiggy has been talking about stealing a boat, he too has done mushrooms] I escaped into an other room and I found a nook under the stairs. For some reason it was filled with pillows. I laid down on top of them and enjoyed my solitude. I heard the others talking on the outside, especially Twiggy, who tried to jump into the water, looking for a boat. I was afraid he would drown and I would have to talk to the police.

One thing to note about this story from LHROOH is that the whole description of the situation, if you've read it, they're not exactly anywhere near water, they're inside a building and Manson is hallucinating all kinds of scary scenarios and he's paranoid about having to deal with police. Earlier in the same story he says he feared that "Pogo was probably killing someone at this very moment and I would have to deal with cops. I don't want to deal with cops when I'm on drugs." It's very likely that what actually happened was that Jeordie talked about a boat and Manson hallucinated hearing through a wall that he was trying to jump into the water. More so it seems he thought Jeordie was trying to jump. It's not specified whether he actually did, but it's unlikely considering the rest of the story.

It's very easy to just move this story into Ft. Lauderdale as there is a lot of waterways and yachts in there, the area is known for that. Here's a kinda tourist info video that shows it pretty well.

Come on. Things so far have pretty much been "piece of public information, how would I make this about abuse?"

For an artist she really seems to lack imagination. 

And then, I saved the most detailed issue last. The "Trent in South Florida situation."

"Trent Reznor was in South Florida around this time and we all went out on night. Trent and I struck up a conversation and Jeordie became so enraged he demanded we leave immediately. He began driving my car erratically on the highway, all the while punching me the chest several times,knocking the air out of my lungs. He proceeded to rip off the rear view mirror and threw it out the open window. Throughout the madness, this was a rather poignant moment. He just couldn’t bear to face himself in that mirror.

 

I feared for my life that night. I stayed awake while he slept. At this point I wanted to leave him, but at this time most of my friends who had not moved away were also too enmeshed in the Manson camp to find a way to do the right thing and stand up for me. No one was comfortable speaking about it, let alone thinking of exposing to the world the horror I was dealing with."

First thing that came to mind was - why is Trent Reznor mentioned by full name, when even the alleged witness wasn't fully named? And Courtney Love was unnamed women in plural. But Trent is mentioned by full name as if he's somehow a central person. Which is actually probably an intentional trick here, after mentioning Trent, the story fast forwards to driving erratically and upon the first read, the reader gets the impression that Trent saw this happen. But it isn't actually said at all. 

Another thing is, was mentioning Trent by full name also done with the entire falling out between Trent and Manson thing in mind? That maybe Trent, in his dislike for Marilyn Manson, would also denounce a close friend of his if asked about this? Was Jessicka wishing that Jeordie's close association to Trent's enemy Manson would shift Trent's opinion of Jeordie, and that, in addition to Trent having had Jeordie in NIN too, would make him want to say something negative about Jeordie to distance him from the name of NIN? Trent didn't really comment on this, though. 

But this mentioning of Trent does set this in a possible time, which adds a little bit of confusion to what Jessicka says. 

So, it's very likely that Jessicka had this time in mind. June 1994. May not have been this exact occasion, as Trent was in the area often around this time. But with the pull from public information it's yet again something to think about, whether this photo was a source of inspiration for a made up story...

Anyway, several issues with timeline here. 

1. This was during the NIN tour mentioned in the statement, during which was the "break" on which the alleged rape happened. This NIN tour started in May 1994 and went on up until like November. 

2. "At this point I wanted to leave him" in JUNE 1994, but it's a huge problem that Jeordie dated Courtney Love also known as "women" as desribed by Jessicka, on this tour starting from when Hole joined the lineup in August 1994. 

3. She'd just before this explained that Jeordie "stole her identity" "overnight" in December 1993, but here Jeordie is, in June 1994 portrayed "not being able to look at himself in the mirror and wanting to become someone else" - at this point he'd already done that in Jessicka's narrative. But in reality it wouldn't be until December 1994 that the dress would come along. 

Yet another question: Had Jeordie been an aggressively jealous person, wouldn't he have had a problem with Trent too? Why did he get along with Trent so well, if he allegedly saw him as a threat? But they became pretty good friends, even though Trent would soon have a big falling out with Marilyn Manson, Trent and Jeordie did stay on good terms, Jeordie even later on joining Nine Inch Nails in the mid 2000s. 

And well let's discuss the driving part of it then finally now that the other issues are out of the way. 

So yeah, it was stated that Jeordie had no driver's license at the time and this fact was widely known among fans due to it coming up in interviews at the time. What's interesting is that when this comes up the first time, it's in the late 90's along with the release of the Coma White music video where Jeordie was driving despite having no license. Then it comes up again in MTV Cribs in 2001 where Jeordie shows off his car, sits onto the driver's seat and states that he doesn't even have a license. 

In both of these instances the lack of license comes up in the context of driving despite that fact. Is this yet again a pull from public information? Oh! People know he's done that, how could it be twisted into a scary story, you know. 

Only, note from both of these instances - On Coma White's music video, he drives very slowly in an area separated from other traffic, an alley closed off for the purpose of the music video filming. Driving very slowly and in a straight line, not a very hard task at all. 

In MTV Cribs he doesn't turn the engine on at all, it doesn't start - the car is more a decoration in his backyard rather than anything he's actually using and he does state that he never drove it. 

Twiggy Ramirez

Coma White video, when this was released, Jeordie did say on TV that he drove the car and had no license - and was drunk. A clip of this interview was sent to me on instagram, as posted by a fan account, but I'd like to also know full details of exactly what interview this was. (MTV - and guessing from Jeordie's hairstyle this is Holy Wood era.)

Jeordie White
Jeordie White

MTV Cribs, 2001. He says he hasn't got a license, sits onto the front seat and tries to start the car. He states that he just has that car and it doesn't even work, it seems he never intended to even use it, just wanted to have one. -  "I moved to Los Angeles and figured I need to get myself a car, but the thing is I don't have a driver's license so I've never actually driven it before."

And well, it's also interesting when considering the public info part, that he's described acting all aggressive and moving around in the car, ripping off the rearview mirror it does bring to mind also when Jeordie appeared in a music video for Monster Magnet, just kinda having a good time on the passenger seat of this car. He's seen kind of "hanging" of the top of the windshield, which would be a similar position of hands if compared to the alleged ripping off the rearview mirror. 

Twiggy Ramirez

The rearview mirror part with the "he just couldn't bear to face himself in that mirror after what he'd done" also really reminds of this part from the movie Natural Born Killers (2:15 and forward). Natural Born Killers was mentioned by Jessicka in a lot of 90's interviews as it came out in October 1994, right before the POAAF tour, where Jessicka was arrested with Marilyn Manson. She stated that the police officers referred to them as Mickey and Mallory as Jessicka and Manson reminded them of the characters of the movie. (Interviews with the arrest mentions included on the allegations against Jessicka page) She has absolutely seen this movie. She also mentioned it when discussing the JOJ song Angels Fuck Devils Kiss and what the song's about in a 90's interview, this is included on the JOJ lyrics page. She's seen this movie and clearly it's had an impact on her. And well this movie does also involve a lot of that erratic driving and fighting in the car etc. 

The whole situation with the rearview mirror relies on the Stolen Identity narrative being true, anyway, and because it's not true, it's kind of... Well, sounds pretty made up. 

Additionally the rearview mirror is a cliche metaphor of the past, you've all heard the different variations of "not looking back" sort of inspirational quotes where it's used like that. In that sense, it's a pretty lame addition to the story, but we can think about it. 

- Does she judge Jeordie for moving on with his life and never looking back into whatever happened with her? Does she want to bring up the past to "get back at him"? Is forgetting the past and moving on also leaving her behind and is she taking that personally, implying Jeordie owes her what he's gotten from life? Is that what she's mad about? -That Jeordie didn't take her where he was going along with him?

I mean the whole forcibly taking control of the car, everything revolving around the car, Jeordie just taking control of HER car, pushing and hitting her as to prevent from regaining control, then throwing away the rearvier mirror, it basically is just a smaller scale version of the entire thing Jessicka's come up with. Replace car with career, - she clearly thinks she was the one supposed to be going places but Jeordie ended up being that person and forgetting about her, she thinks she was the one with the talent and ideas and Jeordie just took it form her and took off. 

And well just, in practice - how possible would the "driving scene" actually be?

An inexperienced driver would be first of all terrified to drive at like pretty much crawling speed, this kind of a driver wouldn't even think to attempt joining onto the highway to drive erratically. How fresh in your memory are your driving lessons? Just this by itself would make me think that this is a bit off. 

Another thing is that an inexperienced driver often, without realizing, turns the wheel to the direction they're looking at and this is one of the challenges in learning to drive, as those tho yet can't very well are afraid to check blind spots to join into a lane. Just switching gears in a manual shift car is a challenge first because people reflexively look at the hand they're using to do this, and then turn the wheel towards their hand without noticing.  

I don't think someone who can't drive could actually pull this off, they'd lose control of the car. If you remember your driving lessons well, try to imagine yourself into a situation like this? That you just sit into a car and start driving super fast while beating someone?

Not only that, but the height difference between Jessicka and Jeordie is big enough that it'd make it even harder for Jeordie to just start driving. Don't know exact numbers and sorry for being european but I'd assume from photos it'd be something like, Jessicka probably 155-165 cm where Jeordie's like 180cm? So not only can't he drive, all the mirrors are adjusted wrong, the seat is too far front and his legs are all bent so it's a pain in the ass to drive. And for even those who have been driving, just sitting into a new car takes a moment to figure out how exactly it's different, like how hard do you have to push the pedals. I'm assuming it was a manual because early 90's.

If it was that easy, then why didn't Jeordie just steal Jessicka's car every time he wanted to go somewhere instead of breaking his back carrying heavy TVs from god knows where?

And if there were other people present there, what did they do? If he was causing a scene, starting this big deal and demanding the car keys, was no one concerned at all? The story just jumps from the bar to the highway so the reader kinda doesn't have the time to think if it's even possible to get there. 

This sounds just so inverted anyway, it doesn't make sense that Jeordie was driving at all? It just sounds almost like it's an exaggerated retelling of a real event but  the roles have been reversed, doesn't it?

 

And what's interesting is that Jessicka herself seems to have more history of erratic driving...

Allstar, March 1999:

The story behind the name goes like this: The band didn't have a name, and Manson had offered them a show. The night before, Jessicka was in jail for a traffic violation and printed on the cell wall was Jack and Jill went up a hill and Jack shot a cop." "I dreamt about that name and when we were flipping round different names, I said Jack In Jill," recalls Jessicka, "and in [Manson's ] normal sarcastic way, he goes, 'How about Jack Off Jill?'"

Genuinely interested, what traffic violation takes you to jail, probably not speeding or running a red light? 

Jessicka in a Jack Off Jill newsletter, November 1997:

Q: "I have a question for anyone in the band: what kind of car do you drive now, and what kind of car do you want to drive?" (From z980059@rice.farm.niu.edu)

Jessicka: "I have never wanted to drive. If I could do anything, I'd have someone drive me! Actually, I used to drive a Toyota Camery, but I drove it into the, uh, lake! All of us have turned our cars in to go tour. You can't really keep any of your possessions, so you kind of get rid of everything when you leave on tour."

Hmm....

  • Instagram
  • Twitter
  • Tumblr

Anything said on social media or this site is a fan's ramblings, I don't know Jeordie personally. THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL WEBSITE AND HAS NOT BEEN MADE IN ANY CONTACT TO JEORDIE/TWIGGY.