bathbomb | Justice for Twiggy

JEORDIE & THE MM ALLEGATIONS

So this page is looking into something I have been thinking about a long time. Before reading this I suggest you read through the Exit From Marilyn Manson section. This is comparing the details of the MM allegations with the details of the Jeordie allegations, maybe trying to understand different perspectives of Jeordie's departure from the band, decisions, why Jeordie has been silent on this all, as well as how the Jeordie allegations might further prove the pre planning aspect of the MM allegations.

I'm sorry, but you probably have to be on track with both cases to get this, but I'll try my best.

I have two theories that can probably be best explained by two idioms; ”Throwing out the baby with the bathwater” and ”The low hanging fruit.” We'll go through these two perspectives.

Let's start with the ”baby with the bathwater” one. This is what it may have looked like in Marilyn Manson's perspective in 2017.

In going through the whole issue of Jeordie getting fired from Marilyn Manson, as you could read on the Manson & Jeordie page, it seemed that Jessicka really did not seem to have as much influence on Jeordie's departure from the band's lineup as she wants us to believe. She just hangs on to Manson's reaction when it actually does not even look like Manson believed the claims to start with. There were several other background issues such as the musical relationship not working, possibly issues with Jeordie and Manson's very different lifestyles as Jeordie was sober and Manson was not, etc.

In Kerrang! issue 1702:

"I did not divorce Twiggy as a friend or brother, because I still care about him greatly. But I can’t say that my musical relationship with Twiggy has been good for several years. My relationship with Tyler Bates on [2015’s] ‘The Pale Emperor’ made something open up in me and I didn’t want to let negative energy back in my life.

There were other people in my life that I thought were my friends that I had to cut out this year, a lot of betrayals that surprised me, and I had to clean house and adopt and new attitude. People mistook my kindness and generosity for weakness. So I kinda adapted this attitude, like, ‘If you fuck with me, there will be consequences.’ I have issues with intimacy. That might sound weird given that we’re lying in bed together, but y’know.

Manson elaborates on parting ways with Jeordie, brings up the non functional musical relationship not working as a reason for this, and makes no mention of Jessicka at all. Then here he also brings up ”There were other people in my life that I thought were my friends that I had to cut out this year, a lot of betrayals that surprised me.” And he said he ”did not divorce Twiggy as a friend or a brother” so that clearly wasn't directed towards him. But why mention it in this context if it had nothing to do with Jeordie? Was this a background issue that affected the decision?

This does raise the question now: Was parting ways with Jeordie more so a ”throwing the baby out with the bathwater” situation? Did Manson seemingly distance himself from Jeordie to in fact make distance between himself and the people associated with Jeordie?

Interestingly, though Manson states he did not end his friendship to Jeordie, he did unfollow Jeordie's then wife Laney Chantal on social media. Laney was seen expressing bitterness towards Manson upon finding this out, on twitter around this time. I was messaged about this detail when I was discussing the intentions Laney had later on. Why would Manson have an issue with Laney if he had no issue with Jeordie?

Now, Laney did later on end up being one of the people supporting Evan Rachel Wood in her abuse claims, as well as many others who accused Manson. She was friends with pretty much everyone who accused Manson, including the people who got less attention. I don't think Laney was in on any kind of a plan at this point, but as discussed with people following this: Laney, while well liked by Jeordie's fans was known to be a bit of an oversharer on social media, which could hint that being possibly even more so in real life. And she was connected to pretty much everyone involved. In an email about this I received, this too was worded well, along the lines of; ”I mean, don't get me wrong, I like Laney a lot, but she seems a bit naive and gullible, someone who might be easy to manipulate by someone to be used as an information source in not so good intentions, think Hollywood best friends?”

Did Manson see Laney as a threat? That she would (probably unknowingly so) be a channel of information to someone wanting to harm him? Surely firing Jeordie would not help this at all because Laney would be bitter towards Manson, but this could have been one of the reasons. And yet again, I don't believe Laney was ”in on the plan” or a main conspirator to attack Manson, but rather someone who resented him for personal reasons (relating to what happened with Laney getting harassed by Jessicka and maybe also she believed that Manson backstabbed Jeordie? One point is lost contacts regarding her career development, too.) and chose to jump onto the bandwagon later on. But she could have been a channel of information from Manson's close circles to someone Manson wanted out of his life. Or just too connected to others he didn't want to associate with. But he could not really tell Jeordie ”Hey stop being in contact to her!” She clearly, despite no longer being in a relationship with Jeordie, was someone whom he still very much cares for

And let's clarify: Not saying "I think Manson got rid of Jeordie because of Laney" no, it's "What if Manson wanted to make distance to Jeordie's friends who seemed to have an issue with him, Laney being one of them?"

MarilynMansonUncancelled on instagram had somewhat similar thoughts in response to Evan's posts about Laney's death recently, and I wanted to add this here, because this is a good point too.

Keep in mind, Evan started hinting towards her abuse claims already in 2016. Marilyn Manson supporters who have investigated her allegations have been able to find evidence supporting her attack being pre planned for a long time. More on this later.

Jeordie was also, and still is to this day, close friends with Fred Sablan. Fred Sablan appeared in the Phoenix Rising documentary and supported ERW. He has been friends with Jeordie for a long time, worked in the same bands with him, and up until Jeordie's cancellation, they were recording the Hour Of Goon podcast together. Fred also, I don't believe is a central person in this, rather someone who jumped along to the bandwagon for personal reasons that were amplified in company of like-minded anti-Manson people. He, by what it sounded like on HOG, seems like a generally pretty "media obedient guy" I wouldn't be surprised if he was influenced by some sort of peer pressure. His opinions on things are lukewarm statements. This can also be seen in how he showed his support to Jeordie very vaguely but then so courageously stood with Evan. Smells like peer pressure. Fred's resentment for Manson may partly also be a result of Manson seemingly throwing Jeordie under the bus in 2017. It may have looked like that very well, and had this situation really been something to do with making distance between Jeordie's friends rather than Jeordie, could Jeordie really tell the full story to everyone? No.

Another name that pops up in the Hour Of Goon podcast, is Ashley Walters. Ashley is mentioned many times throughout the podcast as a friend of Jeordie and Fred. Though, it's to be mentioned that Fred is more often the one to bring her up, it seems he was closer to her. Ashley Walters is also Marilyn Manson's former assistant who then later on would accuse Manson in 2021. Ashley was Manson's assistant during the time of all of the alleged abuse Manson's claimed to have put people through, and it seems the contacts she had gathered during that time were used later on in recruiting people into the Manson allegations. This is mentioned by Greta Aurora in her story, as she talks about her own encounter with Marilyn Manson, which was later on in Ashley's lawsuit fabricated to be an incident of sexual abuse. Greta came forward denying this and stated that her story was positive and consensual, but that Evan's partner Illma Gore had attempted to recruit her to take part in the hit on Marilyn Manson. Surely Ashley would be a person Marilyn Manson would want to make distance to?

Another friend mentioned in the Hour Of Goon podcast is Esme Bianco. One of the main accusers, who also later on would sue Manson, and accuse him or all kinds of things such as human trafficking.

By seemingly ”getting rid of” Jeordie, Manson would make distance to these people while also getting Jeordie out of the way of a bigger hit. Jeordie was already being accused and it impacted him heavily. It would also later on create a massive plothole in the allegations situation, as it has. As I stated on the Twiggy the Plothole page, isn't it strange how not one of these people seem to have a problem being friends with Manson's long time bandmate, one of his best friends, Jeordie, to whom he refers to as his ”brother." ? This would also give Jeordie the peace and time to recover from his own allegations and spend time with his family, as he expressed he wished to.

It could be assumed that since Evan was hinting towards these abuse claims already since 2016, and I do personally remember speculations going wild in the fanbase already before the Jeordie allegations went viral, Manson probably knew that something like this was coming, but not yet when. This could also explain his seemingly vague reaction to Jessicka's allegations. He could have defended Jeordie, but if there were dark clouds like this in the sky, it could have made it risky to stand up for Jeordie more loudly. It could have made things worse in the long run.

Also, ”getting rid of” Jeordie, then keeping a fairly low profile about the status of their friendship. This would invert the situation to such, that when before, Jeordie may have unknowingly been a channel of information for the accusers, now he would be assumed to hate Manson and be in fact a channel of information to him, because all of these people would approach him like ”Yeah heard about what happened bro, Fuck Manson, right?” This would actually require no action whatsoever from Jeordie.

Then we get to the ”why is Jeordie on good terms with the accusers?” ”Why hasn't he defended Manson?” Well, let's talk about the ”Low hanging fruit” theory.

Jessicka started her allegations towards Jeordie in 2015. In 2017 they were already old news, this discussion had been going on a long time. At the same time, ERW started hinting towards these abuse claims in the media around 2016 but did not yet name Marilyn Manson. Speculations were going wild in the fanbase, and some were already jumping the ship as it looked like both of them could have done horrible things.

Jessicka kept pushing her allegations on social media with increasing intensity, and the latest statement from 2017 included the sentence: ”Time was running out for me.” What did she mean with this? Surely not the statute of limitations considering the events she alleges to have happened would have taken place in 1994. It would have been already too late.

Alright, but there seemed to be problems in the background in the working relationship of Manson and Jeordie already at this time. Was this a case where she knew from mutual friends that Jeordie was going to be leaving the band anyway, and she wanted credit for ”taking him down?” That now would be an easy opportunity?

But there was also Evan in the discussion. Evan was hinting towards abuse already at this time. And as discussed already on the Jessicka & Manson part 2 page, before Manson fired Jeordie, Jessicka was including Evan in her accusations, she was trying to take Manson down too, and obviously trying to gain the attention of anyone who could possibly have an issue with Manson. This all was taken back when Jeordie was fired from the band, and Jessicka was happy for a while. That now she seemingly had Manson's approval and confirmation for her claims. She no longer could attack Manson, she needed Manson to be a good guy for his reaction to have any value in public opinion, this is why she likely did not loudly jump along to the Manson allegations later on, rather tried to use them to remind people of her accusations towards Jeordie. (Which further highlights how weird her own "standing with all the victims" stuff is considering she was accusing MM louder than Evan in 2017.)

Was she trying to gain Evan's attention? Was the ”time was running out for me” actually so, that she wanted to hit first before Evan? That she wanted to be the ”first!” This can be supported by the fact that right after Jeordie's exit from the band, the same IP addresses added edits to wikipedia and Mansonwiki pages, the details of the Jeordie allegations, with suspiciously Jessicka praising sentences such as ”Jessicka was the first woman to hashtag metoo against a musician Jeordie White.”

In 2020, when Evan made her now infamous tweet about Kobe Bryant, calling him a rapist upon the news of his death. What got less attention was that Jessicka replied to the tweet, calling Evan out for bad timing and demanding to know why Evan still was following Jeordie on social media. Well, that is pretty interesting.

But Evan still didn't pay attention to this? Considering the sheer size of the accusations towards Manson, the entire scandal of 2021 should have gone down already in 2017, as I pointed out already before on the plothole page. Wouldn't all these people who now claim to have witnessed Manson abuse and rape several people, wouldn't they all have found him to be a hypocrite when firing Jeordie in 2017? ”Oh? Now you don't accept rape? Huh?” Is this why the accusers claim they only all remembered the abuse in 2020? Is that a rushed explanation for this?

I do remember that a tweet from Evan from the time of the Jeordie allegations, 2016-2017, made it's rounds around tumblr. If you have a screenshot of this, you can send it in. The tweet said ”The apple doesn't fall far from the tree...” and people in the tumblr Manson circles took this as a reaction to the Jeordie allegations, that Evan agrees with them and is hinting towards similar accusations against Manson. That, ”like draws to like.”

But she again did not join Jessicka's accusations, despite Jessicka naming her as one of Manson's alleged victims when she was attacking him prior to Jeordie being fired. Why?

Well, she may have tweeted ”apple doesn't fall far from the tree” but if we look at that as a reference to Jeordie and Manson... Manson is a tree being shaken, Jeordie in fact for Evan is a ”low hanging fruit” that would easily fall into her hands.

She does not need Jessicka. Jessicka is not a very good liar, Jessicka is aggressive and posts in bursts of rage that are deleted later. This, if Evan was wanting to look authentic in gathering a group of people to falsely accuse Manson together, would only be a risk. And if she supported Jessicka, Jessicka would get the title of the "Manson whistleblower" that just wouldn't do, right.

But Jeordie being fired from Manson seemed to at this point be more so just a question of time rather than a surprise. All Evan would have to do was to wait for Manson to fire him under pressure of the public.

Maybe she thought that Manson would throw Jeordie under the bus, - which it kind of looked like. This would make Jeordie feel betrayed and let down by Manson. Jeordie, after being cancelled due to false accusations, would be under an insane amount of stress, feeling desperate to prove his innocence, and could be assumed to harbor resentment towards Manson, therefore he would be easy to manipulate into attacking him?

From Evan's perspective, Jeordie would be the perfect, missing piece to her planned attack. Who else could be a witness to everything? Jeordie would have to have been there through everything. He would be the crown jewel of this whole situation. Betrayed best friend, oh he could have dirt on Manson so much if angered enough. Imagine all the stories he could twist. If he'd only wanted to, Jeordie could easily have claimed to be a victim of Manson's sexual harassment himself, it would just need some out of context photos.

Well, and see, in the Manson allegations situation Jeordie would actually be unable to defend Manson due to his own ”cancelled” status. If he spoke in favor of Manson, it would be always added in with the caption ”says accused rapist, Manson's best friend.” His words would only hurt Manson further. They would be a disservice.

But an offer, a bit of pressure such as: ”Don't you want to get back at Manson? You see, it's much easier for the public to take that ONE woman lied, not all of US. You have ONE accuser, Manson has like 12345. Public opinion would be on your side and we could back up that in fact you were innocent and Manson only denounced you to save his own ass. Does that make sense? If you don't comply with this, we could always include you in the allegations?”

This might have been a thought process, rather than anything actually expressed towards him, though. It would be easy for someone who is vindictive themselves to imagine Jeordie to think this way. He just isn't a vindictive person, but the accusers are.

Well, but the thing is, they can't really include him in the allegations because there's all this material of them all being friends with Jeordie, as well as the whole issue of not really paying any attention when he was accused of abuse. Alright. And had they approached Jeordie with something like this, wouldn't he know too much and possibly expose the whole thing? I mean, Jeordie is pretty withdrawn, and these people were confident enough to send these recruiting emails to fairly random women with no idea whether or not they'd want to participate. These accusers aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, I would not at all be surprised if there was damning evidence in Jeordie's email inbox. Not only that, but if they assumed he has resentment towards Manson, he could have heard all about it from several sources.

Or, could be possible that they never approached him at all, but rather were expecting him to be resentful towards Manson enough to join in to the drama later on. Because in general, a lot of Jeordie's supporters were mad about Manson's reaction, it would not be hard to make that assumption that Jeordie would willingly talk shit about Manson. Even Manson fans have assumed Jeordie's silence to be an act of revenge, or that he's actually the mastermind behind all of this, lol. But well, he hasn't said anything. It appears that this kind of discussion simply isn't something he's interested in taking part in. He seemed to just want to move on when his own allegations happened, he didn't exactly fight back.

But see how Jeordie is never mentioned in the allegations, except for two occasions. The groupie video (which was claimed to pretty much be a snuff film where an "underage girl gets killed" but the girl in the video was an adult while filming, her name is Pola Weiss and she did an interview where she stated it was a staged situation and she agreed to everything, did not die obviously either) and the Phoenix Rising documentary. Both of these instances only portray him as an observer, not someone actively participating in abusive behavior. He's simply mentioned as being there. This would require absolutely no action from Jeordie, he wouldn't have to actually do anything, only the mere mention of his name would work as a ”Yeah remember this guy, Manson was real close with him and he also was accused." They like to hint at him being there, but he never comes forward to say anything. - The mention of him is only negative in the mind of a reader if he doesn't elaborate on his opinion on being there.

But both of these instances pretty much unintentionally highlight his absence.

The assumption that Manson ”threw Jeordie under the bus” though, it would kind of protect Jeordie in this situation too. I don't believe it's much of a fetch to assume that he may have been approached with the opportunity to appear in the Phoenix Rising documentary.

When he was mentioned the first time, it struck me as odd and I took it as an expression of resentment towards him. Which it also could have been. But he's not described as a participant in the abuse, rather a possible witness. And again, this highlights his absence. It appears almost like he was mentioned with the assumption that he could have been persuaded into participating in the documentary during it's filming process, but he declined? Evan's ”Twiggy returned and Manson changed immediately into a more abusive person” mention could easily have been imagined to have been followed by a serious looking Jeordie speaking too.

Or, some understood that mention as an implication that Jeordie would have been approving of this behavior. This mention of him does sound rushedly added though. Mentioning him seems like it was not well thought. Was he expected to partake and then mentioned in a fairly negative light when he showed no interest?

But he wasn't there in that documentary. This could be explained well with the ”Manson betrayed Jeordie” narrative though. All of the people hating on Manson would see Jeordie as someone Manson had hurt, therefore they'd be sympathetic and understanding towards him, and Jeordie could easily have explained not wanting to be in the documentary or wanting to participate in anything really, as ”I'm just too anxious after what happened to me. I'm still not over it. I don't want any media attention right now.” It would not even be a lie, nor would it let anyone know what he thinks about this whole situation. He would gain the sympathy of the people involved. Not only that, but he's generally not one to want attention for himself. This is well known by everyone.

What I mean with this is that I find it likely that he could have been expected, even demanded to partake in the hit towards Manson, but him being rather socially withdrawn, averse to big social gatherings, phonecalls etc, as well as his position in all of this would make it rather easy for him to stay out of it while the accusers have the impression he's with them simply because they hope he is. Jeordie is also known to be a man of few words and not only that, those words he chooses can often be open for interpretation and ambivalent in meaning, for the listener to pick up what they want from them. A good example is some of his replies in the chat transcript from a NIN fan Q&A from February 2006:

Jovany: hey twiggy, how was it like being ejected from Manson?
jeordie_white: like jumping into a cold pool of water on a hot day.

Is this a good or a bad thing? May be interpreted as it being a relieving or a refreshing experience or something shocking and uncomfortable. You decide really, the only thing he really says is that it was a big change, but doesn't clearly state whether it was good or bad. Another one:

Nirvana23: Jeordie I heard you quit marilyn manson because of different creative styles What were the Style Changes?
jeordie_white: funny.

What was funny? The creative changes? The question? Manson's ideas? Open for interpretation. In both of these he seems to want to dodge the question; he's already discussed this issue when it happened and it has been years, there's no need to go into detail anymore at this point, so he gives a vague answer to get to the next question.

Often when listening, researching, discussing, we look for confirmation for what we think is true. When it comes to vindictive behavior, there often is far too much confidence in manipulation tactics working which results in short sighted decisions that end up later on creating holes in the stories. It could be that Jeordie, if approached with attempts to get him into this, was vague and his vagueness was interpreted as him being in on this simply because it was hoped for, which caused these people to leave him alone, which is most likely what he wanted anyway; to be left alone. Picking either side would just cause him to get unnecessary drama in his life, but silence and staying out of it would not. Defending Manson would bring up his own allegations again, attacking Manson would make it harder for him to clear his own name because he is so closely associated to him.

Barely bringing him up at all could be telling of these possibilities:

Either manipulating him into attacking Manson was unsuccessful?

Or that there were simply strong expectations for him to attack Manson, he didn't, which highlights some big sketchy details and therefore it's better to act as if he simply isn't there and nothing happened. The public's memory is short, after all. He was mentioned in such a small way, that it does almost at the same time come across as "Yeah we did not forgot that detail we are totally not acting as if he doesn't exist."

From there on: Jeordie's silence actually makes perfect sense. None of this requires any action from him. Him not saying a single word during this entire ordeal of the Manson allegations has only highlighted how inconsistent and weird the allegations are. Even a ”Manson's abuse details” investigator who seeks to expose Manson would have to at some point notice how fucking weird all of this is. Where is he?

I don't think his silence is betrayal towards Manson. I don't think he has anything against Manson. I think this is just a ”let them talk themselves into trouble I don't want to be involved.” Or it could be that he has actually not interacted with any of this at any point and people just don't know what he thinks.

Another thing that might explain his silence is Laney. If what Marilynmansonuncanceled wrote in the story post I included on this page was true, that Laney was under pressure, and then if we take in also the fact that Jeordie was close friends with her, and really cared for her, as well as the fact that Laney was going through a lot of health problems especially with her mental health... Maybe Jeordie has been wary of speaking partly because of that. Because, if he came forward with receipts, proving things false, it would kind of be a public attack towards Laney too. And maybe he was worried of causing her any more troubles and stress than she was already facing. See, Laney was not a "main player" in the Manson attack by any means, more so someone who was connected to a lot of the people and supported the accusers on social media. Basically "Yeah, I saw it." - She was not at the center of attention like Evan or Esme, and if they'd just "waited it out" and let the situation unfold by itself, she would not have been the one to be hit the hardest when this all would end and the truth would be revealed. But had Jeordie spoken out in the middle of the hype and gone to defend Manson, probably a lot of people would have been sent Laney's way in anger. And as Laney was already struggling with her mental health, could be understandable for Jeordie to be wary of saying anything.

He is listed as a possible witness in the Esme Bianco and Ashley Walters cases, however; This could have to do with the claims of Manson being somehow aggressive or violent towards his bandmates, though. And there too, well Jeordie did RETURN to the band in 08 so I doubt he has too much bad things to say. There were a lot of people on these lists, it may not even be relevant to call Jeordie in as a witness. It is also not specified, who it is that would want him on the stand? Whatever he says and whatever the reaction to that is will also once again highlight how weird these cases are when compared to each other. Because, just, what. At this point it's a bit too late to bring him up in any way negatively though.

After the news about Laney's death were made public in early November 2022, Evan Rachel Wood, in the midst of expressing her grief about the situation, also made two story posts regarding Laney and the allegations, the other one is already mentioned here, but I'll post them side by side again so you understand. Because this does point to the direction that the suspicions about Evan expecting Jeordie to join her in attacking Manson could have been correct. She makes a point about Laney being "in the front lines" and then calls out a "coward who hasn't said a thing" - Jeordie is someone who expressed grief about Laney's passing publicly, but he also is the one who has not spoken at all regarding Manson, unlike Laney who did come out to support Evan and the rest of them. These are from marilynmansonuncanceled stories so the added texts are from him, the second one after I asked him whether he too could see that maybe ERW was referring to Jeordie.

"Trying to gain sympathy" though is a really rude thing to say about someone who's lost someone he was married with. Of course Jeordie would grieve Laney honestly, it's not "gaining sympathy" it's literally him expressing grief and people expressing empathy naturally as people do. Is everything about Evan? Really? This is not the time.